Big Law - HR meeting out of the blue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience "rockstar" doesn't quite mean that. It's not the top performer, smartest, top performer, or most personable. It's who the partner decided to invest in. Often due to connections, etc. I didn't appreciate this when I started out. It sounds like it's still the same.

This is the absolute truth. Rockstars are chosen based on who the partners like the most or need the most because the associate has connections, or any other "soft" factor that gives them an edge past the merely super smart and hardworking regular associates.

If you're not one of the chosen few, you're going to hit the "up or out" ceiling and they will counsel you out just like they've done with hundreds of associates before you.

That’s not true at all, there are massive differences in talent and performance among associates, which are usually immediately apparent. This whole “star associates are just the favorites” thing is, in general, cope by lower performers and championed by people on the HR side who don’t want to be held accountable for recruiting outcomes.

This sounds like it was written by a partner. I worked closely with some rockstars (and I was correct that they were the chosen ones because they eventually made partner), and their skills were just not very good. Terrible writing that needed heavy editing, terrible research that would miss obvious lines of argument, not good at delegating work, and even an inability to meet internal deadlines -- but they had great connections with the rainmaker for whatever reason and just seemed to get along well socially with the rainmaker.

I get it; this is the way the world works. And I don't think a partner would ever want to admit that their preferences are not based on merit (and maybe they've fooled themselves into thinking that they would never pick someone with worse skills to be the rockstar over someone with better skills). It happens in every work setting. Not everything is based on merit. And if anyone goes through their professional life convincing themselves that doing excellent work alone is enough to merit promotions and raises, then they likely will not have a very successful career.

And this sounds like it was written by a disgruntled former associate who didn't see success in biglaw. No, there are no rockstar associates with terrible writing skills and inability to meet deadlines who were just there because they knew a lot of people. That's not how biglaw works. The partners have one urgent concern: Getting the assignment that's on their desk right now to the client without mistakes. Can you do that for them in a super helpful way? Superstar associate. This idea that there's all these rockstar associates out there resting their laurels on terrible technical skills but their mom went to college with some bigshot CEOs.... that's just not true.

This. Mentorship is important, but there has to be a high baseline level of competence. Quality work product done in a timely manner. No typos, no obvious legal errors, no surprises. Clients do not pay partner rates for them to have to completely re-write documents.

There is a baseline, but I don't think it's as high as you imply. Networking and soft skills are what matter as long as the lawyering is competent

No, it is high. If a company is paying big law rates they have high standards, and partners don’t want to waste their time fixing up associate work. Even a senior associate doesn’t want to have to look through every email to be sure it doesn’t have too many of run-on sentences or less-than-perfect legal analysis. If a senior associate or a partner trusts someone who is their junior to do 99% the right thing under an incredibly tight deadline, that makes them a rockstar. Very few people can pull it off. I am a great attorney but I am not ashamed to say I couldn’t compete with those folks. They proved their worth right after they joined the firm, word got around, and bam, they got mentors right away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

Isn’t this just playing games? It’s clear what their intentions are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

Isn’t this just playing games? It’s clear what their intentions are.

DP here:
If the firm's intention are clear, then the firm would've spelled out severance, how long to remain on website, info about COBRA and unemployment, procedure for references, etc.

The fact that they didn't is just weird.

[Anonymous]

I was an equity partner at a top tier DC-based Biglaw firm for about a decade before walking away from the law (actually, from doing any kind of work at all) in my early 50s about a decade ago. Before making partner, I was counsel for eight or nine years, and before that of course I was an associate for about the same amount of time.

I have a few reactions to this thread, in no particular order.

1. In my experience, there absolutely were certain associates who were anointed as superstars almost from the get go and without really having to prove anything about themselves first. Obviously this was a given if you were a Supreme Court clerk, for example, but there were other examples that boggled the mind. It’s clearly a thing in Biglaw, or at least it was in my firm.

2. Yes, firms let you hang around much longer than they have in the past. But there’s a psychological price you pay for that. It’s a rare lawyer at a top law firm - virtually all of whom are used to being big fish from high school through law school - who can happily sit back year after year and watch lawyers 5, 10 years their junior get promoted ahead of them. Sure, they will tell you they are laughing all the way to be bank, milking the system, etc., but in my experience it’s not a happy place to be in.

3. Law is a business. It’s all about the bottom line. I wasn’t promoted to partner after a decade as counsel because the firm finally realized that I was a great lawyer with phenomenal writing skills. Nope. It happened only because a big client happened to land on my lap, and that happened only because a lawyer in another firm that had a conflict liked me for some reason and referred a small matter to me that ended up - to everyone’s surprise - being a big deal. No big client? No partnership.

That’s what’s going on with OP. There’s no retaliation going on. There’s just not enough work to justify keeping her around. As she herself said, the closest associate to her is several years younger and only does work in the practice area part of the time. The practice group clearly isn’t busy enough to support OP, and the tough decision was made to let her go. It has nothing to do with her taking maternity leave.

Reading this thread and the many responses to it reinforces my decision to walk away completely from the Biglaw rat race. I don’t care how much money you can make. It just plain sucked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I would be really surprised if there is no severance because the 3 months paid six months on website is market rate for large firms. Maybe that drops off in the amlaw 100-200 range and maybe in the bottom of that amlaw 100 range. Even my cheap firm with pay compression gave that severance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I would be really surprised if there is no severance because the 3 months paid six months on website is market rate for large firms. Maybe that drops off in the amlaw 100-200 range and maybe in the bottom of that amlaw 100 range. Even my cheap firm with pay compression gave that severance.

This. Also putting OP on a PIP means that they will expect SOME work to be done during those 60 days. While they are signaling loud & clear you won't have a long-term future at the firm, it's nothing like the 3 months paid severance/6 months on the website deal where no work will be done during that time frame.

Further, the 3 months severance is often paid biweekly like a normal paycheck. If you take a job at a competing firm immediately, then they stop paying you due to the conflict-of-interest (can't be paid by two firms at once). I know a number of Big Law associates who were laid off like this in the past year.

[Anonymous]

I think the OP will be fine. OP's situation requires time to adjust psychologically to OP's new reality (outside of BIGLAW). It's unfortunate that many (most?) new associates fail to realize that BIGLAW is almost never forever. The smart ones stay 3-4 years to pay off their student loans and then move to the government or in-house for more experience. The naive associates think that just doing good work (including being on call all the time) will guaranty them employment (it won't). The deluded associates think they're going to make partner without clients or connections.

My final thoughts on this thread - for OP and any BIGLAW associates who have stumbled across it - is that you must take charge of your legal career. Otherwise, you won't be successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

What were the terms of the PIP? Hitting higher billables? Anything else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I would be really surprised if there is no severance because the 3 months paid six months on website is market rate for large firms. Maybe that drops off in the amlaw 100-200 range and maybe in the bottom of that amlaw 100 range. Even my cheap firm with pay compression gave that severance.

No, the 60 days (allegedly called PIP but no PIP presentation, so no PIP) is what the firm is giving her to find another job and get out. that is it. Now if she's still there in 60 days with no new job in hand, then they might discuss something else like severance. Remember these firm lawyers are smart. Why would they give more when they don't have to? they are telling her to find a new job now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

Isn’t this just playing games? It’s clear what their intentions are.

DP - isn't the law firm just playing games? And playing them to CYA against an employment action against them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

Isn’t this just playing games? It’s clear what their intentions are.

DP here:
If the firm's intention are clear, then the firm would've spelled out severance, how long to remain on website, info about COBRA and unemployment, procedure for references, etc.

The fact that they didn't is just weird.

Nope, that’s not how it works these days. Seems weird but sadly becoming common.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I'm sorry OP. I agree with you, the paycheck from this 60 day period is likely the "severance." It's not a real PIP, if it does not include metrics to improve your performance and keep your job. If the metrics are you need to work more hours, then they need to be giving you the work. Maybe continue to play dumb and ask more questions about how to "pass" the PIP. If you're comfortable, you can see an attorney, not to sue them, but to help negotiate a better deal.

You you want to go the play dumb and act like it's a real PIP, schedule weekly meeting with the partner to discuss progress and what you are doing to meet it. Part of an actual PIP is management working with the employee to hit the goals- in this case giving them the work. My guess is the PIP guise would drop very fast

Isn’t this just playing games? It’s clear what their intentions are.

DP - isn't the law firm just playing games? And playing them to CYA against an employment action against them?

They are not playing games. They are running a business.

It would be much smarter to use the partner to introduce you to connections or serve as a reference rather than play dumb and embarrass oneself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is op. This SUCKS. Im feeling defeated and depressed and imposter syndrome is eating me alive. The pip made no reference to a severance package and nothing was discussed about it. I think the posters who said it’s a 60 day runway and then they will talk to you about severance are wrong, I think this 60 day window is the severance period basically.

I would be really surprised if there is no severance because the 3 months paid six months on website is market rate for large firms. Maybe that drops off in the amlaw 100-200 range and maybe in the bottom of that amlaw 100 range. Even my cheap firm with pay compression gave that severance.

No, the 60 days (allegedly called PIP but no PIP presentation, so no PIP) is what the firm is giving her to find another job and get out. that is it. Now if she's still there in 60 days with no new job in hand, then they might discuss something else like severance. Remember these firm lawyers are smart. Why would they give more when they don't have to? they are telling her to find a new job now.

No --the 60 days is a gift. Then the 3 months. If it is really Biglaw and not some big law firm that is not really BigLaw. OP -- at Davis Polk, Wilmer, Covington, Paul Weiss type firm or Greenberg?