Big Law - HR meeting out of the blue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

NP. It literally just means they didn’t work enough hours. OP, don’t take “not being partner material” to be a slight. It actually speaks well of your priorities and self esteem IMO.

I take it to mean the practice group is overstaffed and someone has to go. That's going to be the senior associate who lacks their own book

Exactly.

Reach out to recruiters today, OP. Good luck!

Any chance of going in house with the lost big client?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let’s coach OP on whether she can take clients with her?

It doesn't sound like OP has clients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP- if her whole team is low billables do they all get the axe? Do they have to be rainmaking as senior associates?

Not all of them, as consolidation will raise the hours of those left. And yes, in my experience, to become a partner you need to be developing business and showing rainmaking potential as a senior associate. I had 30 clients by the time I made partner as a 7th year associate. My business development hours were huge, and it took a ton of hustle. No one made partner without at least a small book. You can't survive without it under most firms' compensation models. Some firms used to have a layer of 'working partners,' but even many of those have done away with them.

Have been practicing in biglaw for 20 years. This is not my observed experience at all, at least not in better ranked law firms.

It is very rare for 7th year associates to ever have business or be expected to have business. Law firms know that the best type of business is expanding business with an existing client. An associate with a few small scrappy clients is of very little value to the firm. They'd rather have stellar associates that have the right fit so that they can expand existing work. And sure, bringing in new good clients along the way helps too. But those types of clients aren't developed by 7th year associates; they are developed by junior and midlevel partners. Most good firms do not expect 7th years to have business; they promote you to non-equity partner and then the expectation starts to bring in business in order to move up or out. Some firms won't promote you without a book of business, but these are crappier firms that drag you along "senior associate-ship" until you're 13 years out of law school without promoting you to partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

Isn’t this a common way that law firms move out associates? They make it clear that it’s time to look elsewhere and give you a window to do so?

Not sure it’s always done via a formal PIP.

Yes, we used to call it double secret probation.

[Anonymous]

Depending on practice area, could be a good time to transition to the feds?

Good luck, OP. It's not personal, if there was work you'd still be there, You were just too expensive in a downturn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP- if her whole team is low billables do they all get the axe? Do they have to be rainmaking as senior associates?

Not all of them, as consolidation will raise the hours of those left. And yes, in my experience, to become a partner you need to be developing business and showing rainmaking potential as a senior associate. I had 30 clients by the time I made partner as a 7th year associate. My business development hours were huge, and it took a ton of hustle. No one made partner without at least a small book. You can't survive without it under most firms' compensation models. Some firms used to have a layer of 'working partners,' but even many of those have done away with them.

Have been practicing in biglaw for 20 years. This is not my observed experience at all, at least not in better ranked law firms.

It is very rare for 7th year associates to ever have business or be expected to have business. Law firms know that the best type of business is expanding business with an existing client. An associate with a few small scrappy clients is of very little value to the firm. They'd rather have stellar associates that have the right fit so that they can expand existing work. And sure, bringing in new good clients along the way helps too. But those types of clients aren't developed by 7th year associates; they are developed by junior and midlevel partners. Most good firms do not expect 7th years to have business; they promote you to non-equity partner and then the expectation starts to bring in business in order to move up or out. Some firms won't promote you without a book of business, but these are crappier firms that drag you along "senior associate-ship" until you're 13 years out of law school without promoting you to partner.

I wasn't using my self as the common example, and this was before you graduated law school, so, yes times have changed, but we still need to see development potential no matter how we design the cross over from associate to partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

It means a combination of things: They don't have the personality for law firm partnership (which requires a certain type of confidence, do-er, hardiness), they aren't able to transition into the more senior roles of overseeing and delegating work and multitasking on more things, they aren't taking ownership in a higher level of work (ie are still waiting for partners to tell them what to do instead of getting out in front of things to anticipate problems and client questions), they aren't strong in client interactions, or otherwise just generally don't have that extra oomph that are typically bare minimum for being a rain maker partner.

Having deficits in some of those skills does not make you an inferior lawyer. But being partner is a lot of money, and the firm only wants to be paying you that lot of money if there's a pretty good chance that by investing in your for 5 more years, you're likely to start making them ALOT of money through client growth. Being a technically good lawyer becomes far less important as a skill at the partner level, and all the other stuff becomes increasingly important. So if you lack a certain energy on client calls that clients have expressed lack of confidence with your ability to run a deal, or you're working on a deal with a partner and you are following all their instructions to a tee but you haven't taken a step back to really understand the deal so you can run with it... you can be very good at doing the technical work but may not be ready to take that next step. If there are 4 associates on your team and two of them a couple years junior to you are extremely driven and hit all the above soft skills, and there's not enough work for everyone, then partners will naturally gravitate towards the other two and you'll end up being a little below their hours. So it kind of happens naturally that there are some associates who just don't click with the partnership promotion path.

With all that said, it is often a law firm fit issue, or time and place issue, where you go to another firm, and the pieces just fall together better and you instantly connect with a few partners, you get jazzed about the work and better integrated on matters - so you start to take more ownership and understand it better, and now you're a superstar. Definitely happens all the time, where another firm just ends up working better. It's usually time and place, because we're talking about associates who have a good technical skill set.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

It means a combination of things: They don't have the personality for law firm partnership (which requires a certain type of confidence, do-er, hardiness), they aren't able to transition into the more senior roles of overseeing and delegating work and multitasking on more things, they aren't taking ownership in a higher level of work (ie are still waiting for partners to tell them what to do instead of getting out in front of things to anticipate problems and client questions), they aren't strong in client interactions, or otherwise just generally don't have that extra oomph that are typically bare minimum for being a rain maker partner.

Having deficits in some of those skills does not make you an inferior lawyer. But being partner is a lot of money, and the firm only wants to be paying you that lot of money if there's a pretty good chance that by investing in your for 5 more years, you're likely to start making them ALOT of money through client growth. Being a technically good lawyer becomes far less important as a skill at the partner level, and all the other stuff becomes increasingly important. So if you lack a certain energy on client calls that clients have expressed lack of confidence with your ability to run a deal, or you're working on a deal with a partner and you are following all their instructions to a tee but you haven't taken a step back to really understand the deal so you can run with it... you can be very good at doing the technical work but may not be ready to take that next step. If there are 4 associates on your team and two of them a couple years junior to you are extremely driven and hit all the above soft skills, and there's not enough work for everyone, then partners will naturally gravitate towards the other two and you'll end up being a little below their hours. So it kind of happens naturally that there are some associates who just don't click with the partnership promotion path.

With all that said, it is often a law firm fit issue, or time and place issue, where you go to another firm, and the pieces just fall together better and you instantly connect with a few partners, you get jazzed about the work and better integrated on matters - so you start to take more ownership and understand it better, and now you're a superstar. Definitely happens all the time, where another firm just ends up working better. It's usually time and place, because we're talking about associates who have a good technical skill set.

Thanks for responding. Seems like there are a lot of different personality types that can be good/successful at actual lawyering, but it's a very specific type of personality that's cut out for partnership.

[Anonymous]

This kind of “quiet firing” happened to a handful of my friends, all around 4th/5th year. They were shocked and upset. Most took in house jobs and are much happier now. It’s pretty common. It has nothing to do with you. I’m wishing you all the luck in finding your next job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

+1. It might not feel like it, OP, but this is a show of respect to you. They have enough respect to do this as gently as possible. They don't have to, but they did and that speaks well of all involved, including you.

OP is 3 months removed from paternity leave and has good reviews. 60 days is better than having to defend a lawsuit

Could it be because they are a parent now? Is that legal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

+1. It might not feel like it, OP, but this is a show of respect to you. They have enough respect to do this as gently as possible. They don't have to, but they did and that speaks well of all involved, including you.

OP is 3 months removed from paternity leave and has good reviews. 60 days is better than having to defend a lawsuit

Could it be because they are a parent now? Is that legal?

You can terminate parents, and OP is certainly not being counseled out because they are a parent. Virtually every partner I know is a parent and had children while they were an associate.

[Anonymous]

I would say you should ask for at least 6 months. 60 days is ridiculous. I am a partner at a boutique law firm and we give people 6 months in these situations. Sometimes they do a little billable work and they usually find a job before 6 months but I think 60 days is pretty miserly. Come on - they have been making bank o you for 6-7 years and they give you 60 days?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This op with an update for the group. The meeting was for a PIP (performance improvement plan) for 60 days. In other words I should find a new job and I have 60 days to do it. They guised the meeting as “wanting to help me so I don’t hit a wall when I’m up for partner in 2 years” and said “wanting to make partner is a nice ambition” and “you billing rate as a senior associate is high and it almost makes more sense for our group to use a junior and train up” when I said I’m shocked by this given that I’ve had great reviews for the past few years including this last year they said “law firms are notoriously bad about giving reviews” and “your evaluations are fine, everyone gets an A we’re not good at giving evaluations” and “let’s not focus on reviews”

Well that’s interesting since all the posts last night said big law didn’t do PIPs.

Agree with another poster that this is a good runway to focus on finding a new job.

Doesn't sound like a PIP even if they are calling it that because they are going to fire OP at the end of 60 days regardless of her performance. I suspect they told all the partners in OP's practice area so they won't be assigning any work to her. Basically OP has 60 days notice before she is fired but she will probably still get severance at that point so she's getting an extra 2 months of severance than other people get.

Why do you think OP is a woman? I thought OP was a male.

OP, I am sorry. 60 days is too short. Firms used to give at least three months in the old days (20 years ago).

[Anonymous]

No one else is going to call b.s. on this firm? Let’s recap the facts. OP never had any indication that performance was a problem. The group loses a big client and there’s not enough work. OP is then told that she is performing poorly enough to be placed on a PIP and that the lack of notice is because they were too nice to say anything? But now that she has become a working mom, it’s time to target her and tell her this story?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one else is going to call b.s. on this firm? Let’s recap the facts. OP never had any indication that performance was a problem. The group loses a big client and there’s not enough work. OP is then told that she is performing poorly enough to be placed on a PIP and that the lack of notice is because they were too nice to say anything? But now that she has become a working mom, it’s time to target her and tell her this story?

You've never worked in big law have you? It shows.