Surrogacy abroad

[Anonymous]

OP, know that most people are not wackadoodle enough to actually think that surrogacy is “purchasing a human being” (wtaf). As you can tell, like adoption, this is an issue that triggers a lot of people’s personal baggage.

A non-anonymous board may be a better resource for you, since anonymous boards really encourage people to let their crazy/vicious flags fly.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that there are unethical surrogacies, and a decent enough person to want to avoid that. I wish you luck in finding a better corner of the Internet for actual discussion of what ethical surrogacy can look like, and if it can be ethical to do it across borders (I think it absolutely can be).

Best of luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Everyone is happy to buy avocados from Cartels in Mexico. But paying a good amount of money for a biological service to an individual is unethical?

[Anonymous]

Avocado =/= human child

Does this really need to be said

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Avocado =/= human child

Does this really need to be said

+1 WTAF

[Anonymous]

Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Avocado =/= human child

Does this really need to be said

+1 WTAF

Maybe you really don't understand. The cartels are terrorism groups that kill or steal from hundreds of people a year. Buying avocados is arguably much worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

Unless you've been there you really don't understand.

[Anonymous]

Np. I personally think that donating kidneys should be legal for pay

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So you want to travel to some poor country and pay an impoverished woman to get pregnant and carry your child? That seems ethical to you?

Bet you pay impoverished women to produce your adorbz housewares and clothing all the time. Hypocrite.

You think producing clothing is the same effect on a body as carrying a child? Are you a man or something? No way a woman would compare these two.

Speak for yourself. I’m a woman and I’d much rather get well paid for being pregnant again than work for less than minimum wage in a factory.

How do we determine what is well paid to carry a pregnancy and birth a child?

OP is trying to cut corners and pay as little as possible by going to a poor country. How much is a bio child worth?

A biological child is priceless to me. I am thankful that fertility was a nonissue for me, but I know I would never adopt. DH has an adopted sister who has been nothing but a heartache for his family. She was adopted as a baby. She was treated with love and kindness, but became a nightmare in high school and it has never stopped. She is mentally ill, most likely inherited, and has repeated problems with drug abuse and the law and with running away. My in laws have done everything imaginable for her, but it’s useless. Sure, this can happen with a biological child, but it’s different when it does. My in laws feel burdened in a way that wouldn’t with a biological child.

OP isn’t trying to cut corners as you say. She says she has around $50,000 to $70,000 to spend on a surrogate. She is seeking to find one in a country where that is a lot more money than $200,000 is in the US. Do you know what kind of a difference $20,000, let alone $50,000 would make to a poor woman in India. It’s a shame this was outlawed there. The rich people in that country really do not care about the poor ones and will do anything to keep them down, under the guise of “protecting” them.

Do not pay attention to these trolls, OP! Good luck to you!!!

Youre probably (precisely) right that the rich in those countries dont care about the poor, and especially the poor women. But purposely seeking out a poor country to leverage your $ against someone elses body is gross. I don't love the idea of going to a poor country and waving your money around, looking to exploit someone. Basically buying a slave for 10 months (at least). Going to a poor country also means its more likely that the surrogate has less protections, may not be aware of any legal issues, etc. Much easier to take advantage of a poor impoverished woman from a developing nation rather than pay an appropriate market price for her body. Whatever that price is supposed to be.

A surrogate isn’t a slave. It’s offensive for you to equate the two. It’s not like anyone is kidnapped and forced to carry other people’s kids. It’s a CHOICE for the surrogates. No one is waving money around. OP doesn’t have $200,000. She has half that. That’s a lot of money for someone in most countries outside of the US, Canada, Israel, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. It actually comes out to much more money for the surrogate.

Why are you deciding for other women how they can make money? I, for one, loved being pregnant. I would happily do it for money, especially if I needed some, but I’m in my late 40s and think that I’d be pushing it at this stage. I wouldn’t consider it selling my body. I’d consider it helping someone out and getting paid for it as a huge bonus.

Why is your opinion the only one that counts? Are you imagining yourself as Judge Judy?

NP. Many women have been forced and coerced into surrogacy. I watched a documentary about surrogates in India, and one man decided that his wife was going to be a surrogate to supplement his income. She was forced to stay away from her own child for the duration of her pregnancy and live in a baby mill. When she gave birth, she was treated as subhuman by the doctors, who showed complete disregard for her. After the birth, her husband was so thrilled with the money that he decided to make her do it again. Luckily commercial surrogacy is illegal there now, but this clearly illustrates the ways in which surrogacy can be used to exploit women. Also, the average US surrogate isn't making anywhere near $100k. To put it charitably, you sound incredibly naive.

Why don’t you watch a documentary of how women are generally treated in India? They drown out their baby daughters and burn rape victims to death, too. Do you think this guy was an otherwise upstanding husband?

For some of these women, surrogacy opens a million doors and a lot of freedom. To put it charitably, you sound incredibly naive.

I'm Indian and I don't need to learn about women in India. You're also engaging in whataboutism again, which is completely illogical. Just because some poor women are exploited and abused in terrible ways certainly doesn't justify legalizing another way to exploit and abuse poor women exclusively. Luckily the Indian government is smarter than you and has banned commercial surrogacy, finding it unethical - like most of the world. Surrogacy isn't "opening doors" for poor women any more than prostitution. A year later, these surrogates aren't suddenly climbing the success ladder, going to college, or being boss girl.

As an Indian you should be ashamed of the caste system, of the slums, of the lack of public toilets and the many inherent elements of Indian culture which completely prevent a person from rising above their station at birth. But it’s a lot easier to rant about a fringe, niche surrogacy industry than it is to actually fix the numerous real problems in your country. I used to blame the British and colonialism, but after seeing how a lot of Indians see the world, I don’t anymore.

What’s gross is your weird entitlement to the wombs of impoverished Indian women. Like you know what’s best for them.

I feel no entitlement to anyone’s womb. I just believe that paid surrogacy is a perfectly ethical CHOICE. I also believe that most women living in India have a lot more to worry about than surrogacy or our opinions about what’s best for them.

For what it’s worth, I’m Ukrainian and would have gone that route if I needed a surrogate. I know Ukrainian women who were surrogates and they loved it, thought it was easy money. Nobody felt exploited. But go ahead and build shackles in your head.

You should be ashamed.

https://www.indiatimes.com/explainers/news/ukraine-the-baby-factory-of-the-world-558590.html

"Many women who opted to become surrogates say that the conditions for them are terrible...Most of the women come from small villages and are in hopeless situations. They spend the first few weeks lying around, crying. Women are sometimes not paid promised amounts or are housed in terrible conditions during the later stages of their pregnancies. In some cases, parents have discovered they have no genetic link with children born to surrogates. Authorities suspect some clinics are also using surrogacy as a cover for illegal commercial adoptions."

'"Ukraine is becoming an international online baby store," the country's commissioner for children's rights Mykola Kuleba warned, condemning the "exploitation" of Ukrainian women and calling for a ban on the industry.'

This quote really stood out to me: "In some cases, parents have discovered they have no genetic link with children born to surrogates." This brings up many questions, such as what happened to your genetic offspring? Is your real baby out there somewhere, and is she okay? Who does this child belong to, and were they intentionally trafficked? What a nightmare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

Unless you've been there you really don't understand.

Probably so, but it makes me more dispassionate about the situation as a whole. I just don't think someone in the throes of yearning for a baby is in a headspace where it's possible to consider every aspect rationally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Avocado =/= human child

Does this really need to be said

+1 WTAF

Maybe you really don't understand. The cartels are terrorism groups that kill or steal from hundreds of people a year. Buying avocados is arguably much worse.

This is another example of whataboutism that is so prevalent on this thread. "What about avocados?" has nothing to do with surrogacy. Logic 101. Nobody on this thread has been able to defend surrogacy without resorting to a logical fallacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

Unless you've been there you really don't understand.

Unless what? Unless you've had a miscarriage? Unless you havent been able to bear any child? Unless you havent been able to bear the # of children you want? Unless you havent been able to get a certain sex? Where is "there" and how does it justify the purchase of a human being? (not an avocado, just to be clear, a human child)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Avocado =/= human child

Does this really need to be said

+1 WTAF

Maybe you really don't understand. The cartels are terrorism groups that kill or steal from hundreds of people a year. Buying avocados is arguably much worse.

Freshman debate club fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, know that most people are not wackadoodle enough to actually think that surrogacy is “purchasing a human being” (wtaf). As you can tell, like adoption, this is an issue that triggers a lot of people’s personal baggage.

A non-anonymous board may be a better resource for you, since anonymous boards really encourage people to let their crazy/vicious flags fly.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that there are unethical surrogacies, and a decent enough person to want to avoid that. I wish you luck in finding a better corner of the Internet for actual discussion of what ethical surrogacy can look like, and if it can be ethical to do it across borders (I think it absolutely can be).

Best of luck to you.

+1000

What kills me the most about this thread is the venomous Marxists. They’re ranting about exploitation of poor people when really they’re just ranting against capitalism and trying to pretend they’re being altruistic.

Well, I ask you Marxists, what about firefighters? Should they not be paid? Should rescuing people be done on a volunteer basis, to ensure that no one gets exploited? I mean firefighters put their bodies on the line to go into burning buildings for money, sometimes to rescue much richer people. Look how many died rescuing rich bankers on September 11. That’s as clear an imbalance of power as it gets.

To keep it fair, should they work on a volunteer basis only? In their own neighborhoods? For people of the same ethnicity as they are? (Otherwise, it’s clearly racist.)

Under your line of reasoning, firefighters are being PAID to use their BODIES to rescue other people that should just rescue themselves or deal with their predicament. (I mean sometimes in life you just have to accept your fate. We don’t get everything we want.) It’s appalling, unethical and unconscionable to ask someone else to be paid to use their body to rescue YOU . They’re clearly being unfairly exploited with their paychecks and benefits.

Should people, especially rich people, figure out their own volunteer system of saving themselves from a fire? So as not to expose these working class, mostly White men to the many serious potentially fatal dangers they face in trying to rescue them? It’s not fair to have this sort of imbalance of power.
Firefighters are forced to run into burning buildings FOR MONEY!!!!

You all are nuts and incredibly judgmental. I hope one day you are forced to eat your words in a very personal way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, know that most people are not wackadoodle enough to actually think that surrogacy is “purchasing a human being” (wtaf). As you can tell, like adoption, this is an issue that triggers a lot of people’s personal baggage.

A non-anonymous board may be a better resource for you, since anonymous boards really encourage people to let their crazy/vicious flags fly.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that there are unethical surrogacies, and a decent enough person to want to avoid that. I wish you luck in finding a better corner of the Internet for actual discussion of what ethical surrogacy can look like, and if it can be ethical to do it across borders (I think it absolutely can be).

Best of luck to you.

+1000

What kills me the most about this thread is the venomous Marxists. They’re ranting about exploitation of poor people when really they’re just ranting against capitalism and trying to pretend they’re being altruistic.

Well, I ask you Marxists, what about firefighters? Should they not be paid? Should rescuing people be done on a volunteer basis, to ensure that no one gets exploited? I mean firefighters put their bodies on the line to go into burning buildings for money, sometimes to rescue much richer people. Look how many died rescuing rich bankers on September 11. That’s as clear an imbalance of power as it gets.

To keep it fair, should they work on a volunteer basis only? In their own neighborhoods? For people of the same ethnicity as they are? (Otherwise, it’s clearly racist.)

Under your line of reasoning, firefighters are being PAID to use their BODIES to rescue other people that should just rescue themselves or deal with their predicament. (I mean sometimes in life you just have to accept your fate. We don’t get everything we want.) It’s appalling, unethical and unconscionable to ask someone else to be paid to use their body to rescue YOU . They’re clearly being unfairly exploited with their paychecks and benefits.

Should people, especially rich people, figure out their own volunteer system of saving themselves from a fire? So as not to expose these working class, mostly White men to the many serious potentially fatal dangers they face in trying to rescue them? It’s not fair to have this sort of imbalance of power.
Firefighters are forced to run into burning buildings FOR MONEY!!!!

You all are nuts and incredibly judgmental. I hope one day you are forced to eat your words in a very personal way.

Oh dear. Are you the person on the Ivy League thread ranting about Marxist wokesters and Islamicists? What is in the water today?