Wouldn't want my kids to go into medicine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP physician here who said I made less than 2 of my friends who are govt lawyers. I make in the low 200s, but it fluctuates (didn’t get bonus during Covid).

Both of my lawyer friends work for the SEC - we don’t discuss exact numbers, but it seems to me that they make around 250 - certainly not 180. I do know that both of these lawyers make more than their spouses (who are doctors - that’s how we know each other).The lawyers also WFH and only about 40 hours a week. And they talk about a pension, too.

It was so awful during Covid when we were working crazy hours, scrambling for childcare, and terrified of bringing it home to our families. All of the non-doctors appeared to view Covid like a fun vacation, and many of them still work from home!

It is true that doctors in the DMV are relatively poorly paid - if we moved to Alabama or Idaho we’d be doing much better financially. But then my spouse wouldn’t be employable.

And what’s up with the snide comment about pediatrician salaries? I’m not peds so I have no personal stake in this argument, but do you really think that it’s fair that peds is so poorly paid? Is children’s health that unimportant?

Most govt attorneys top out at 180k. SEC is an exception--you can't base govt lawyer salaries on SEC salaries. It is a different scale.

Okay. But they have every evening, weekend, and holiday off, they start making something close to this right out of law school, and they rarely, if ever, have to watch people die and keep working.

I life my job, but I have to agree with OP. This isn’t a job that I want for my kids if they don’t want it for themselves.

No they don’t! How do you even know the typical career trajectory of a lawyer at that agency?

I am a government lawyer (policy) and made less than 60k out of law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP physician here who said I made less than 2 of my friends who are govt lawyers. I make in the low 200s, but it fluctuates (didn’t get bonus during Covid).

Both of my lawyer friends work for the SEC - we don’t discuss exact numbers, but it seems to me that they make around 250 - certainly not 180. I do know that both of these lawyers make more than their spouses (who are doctors - that’s how we know each other).The lawyers also WFH and only about 40 hours a week. And they talk about a pension, too.

It was so awful during Covid when we were working crazy hours, scrambling for childcare, and terrified of bringing it home to our families. All of the non-doctors appeared to view Covid like a fun vacation, and many of them still work from home!

It is true that doctors in the DMV are relatively poorly paid - if we moved to Alabama or Idaho we’d be doing much better financially. But then my spouse wouldn’t be employable.

And what’s up with the snide comment about pediatrician salaries? I’m not peds so I have no personal stake in this argument, but do you really think that it’s fair that peds is so poorly paid? Is children’s health that unimportant?

Most govt attorneys top out at 180k. SEC is an exception--you can't base govt lawyer salaries on SEC salaries. It is a different scale.

Okay. But they have every evening, weekend, and holiday off, they start making something close to this right out of law school, and they rarely, if ever, have to watch people die and keep working.

I life my job, but I have to agree with OP. This isn’t a job that I want for my kids if they don’t want it for themselves.

No they don’t! How do you even know the typical career trajectory of a lawyer at that agency?

I am a government lawyer (policy) and made less than 60k out of law school.

Doctors make 60k for up to 9 years after med school while working 80+ hours and working weekends and holidays. Just please stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You go into medicine if you are truly interested in service. If you simply want to make an easy buck there’s plenty of other options.

What job has that lifestyle, income, and stability?

If my friends, the one I would say is the one with the closest lifestyle, income, and stability to mine is a family court judge.
She has to work with a lot of people from varying backgrounds, some of whom are not that well trained, and some of whom are flat out lying, and then use her own knowledge and background to make the best decision she can. The volume is high and there is never enough time. Sometimes she is wrong and there are consequences, and she has to live with that.
Her income is similar to mine.

To be fair, I wouldn’t push my kids into that either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP physician here who said I made less than 2 of my friends who are govt lawyers. I make in the low 200s, but it fluctuates (didn’t get bonus during Covid).

Both of my lawyer friends work for the SEC - we don’t discuss exact numbers, but it seems to me that they make around 250 - certainly not 180. I do know that both of these lawyers make more than their spouses (who are doctors - that’s how we know each other).The lawyers also WFH and only about 40 hours a week. And they talk about a pension, too.

It was so awful during Covid when we were working crazy hours, scrambling for childcare, and terrified of bringing it home to our families. All of the non-doctors appeared to view Covid like a fun vacation, and many of them still work from home!

It is true that doctors in the DMV are relatively poorly paid - if we moved to Alabama or Idaho we’d be doing much better financially. But then my spouse wouldn’t be employable.

And what’s up with the snide comment about pediatrician salaries? I’m not peds so I have no personal stake in this argument, but do you really think that it’s fair that peds is so poorly paid? Is children’s health that unimportant?

Most govt attorneys top out at 180k. SEC is an exception--you can't base govt lawyer salaries on SEC salaries. It is a different scale.

Okay. But they have every evening, weekend, and holiday off, they start making something close to this right out of law school, and they rarely, if ever, have to watch people die and keep working.

I life my job, but I have to agree with OP. This isn’t a job that I want for my kids if they don’t want it for themselves.

No they don’t! How do you even know the typical career trajectory of a lawyer at that agency?

I am a government lawyer (policy) and made less than 60k out of law school.

Sorry. I only know a few government attorneys. The ones I know started off as associates at big law firms and switched to government law because they didn’t like the long hours and lifestyle.
They made around to $160k right out of law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(new poster)

I'd like to be clear to a prior PP that I am absolutely certain my family was of a lower social class than theirs was. Unless you also feel through a tired floor in your bedroom and had an outhouse instead of indoor plumbing, that is.

I'm one of those pediatricians who stupidly tries to avoid in-clinic procedures on kids if I can, despite the fact that I could be billing much higher.

And how did you pay for med school?

The military is an option, but the physical cutoff is actually quite challenging.

Scholarship and a combined degree program where I could teach in my graduate field for a tuition waiver.

Why do you ask?

So you got an MD/PhD, sure that’s one way to pay for it. But for most students that a huge long shot.

Why are you saying things that you know nothing about?
It’s not a huge long shot. It’s a huge time commitment and a ton of work and it usually doesn’t make any financial sense if you run the numbers. 4 years of medical school tuition is less than 4-5 years of attending physician salary that you are losing while getting your PhD.
Only really dedicated people go this route.

I have a PhD, and I came from a pot background, so I went to school with a lot of MD/PhD. And yes those people are like me: doing a job because of a calling and giving up monetary gains because they would make more money in other routes. And yes it doesn’t make as much monetary sense, but as a poor student you don’t run the risk of ending up with six figure debt and unable to pay (if for some reason you have divert from medical career). But they are fiercely competitive, best of the best rather than run of mill doctor.

This thread is about run of the mill doctors and how current doctors think it’s a terrible career, and many of us who work in other fields pointing out how privileged they are and are unaware how “regular” corporate jobs work now.

UMC students don’t run the risk of six figure debt that they are unable to pay (if for some reason they divert from a medical career) because they suicide if that happens, and the debt is discharged if you are dead. This is why medical students are told over and over again never to consolidate with your spouse.

I think OP is right not to want this for her kids.

[Anonymous]

PP with family friend at SEC.

I feel like this whole thread turned to money, but that was was just one facet of my argument against my kids going into medicine.

The brutal hours that never fully normalize, inhumane treatment during a very long and expensive training, and increasing need to treat patients as you are told to do so by an algorithm concocted by an MBA. And the push push push to go faster. I can’t take the time I need and there is no wiggle room for a complex case. And insurance reimbursement drives so much of what I am allowed to do.

It seems that many here think doctors just should be happy. Well, they are not. So they are retiring in droves or moving to industry. Which is why we have a shortage, the ones who are sticking it out are overstretched, and it’s increasingly hard to get an appointment with a doc (even for those of us who can “phone a friend”). Surely people understand that there is a reason for that? It’s not just a few random whiners on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP with family friend at SEC.

I feel like this whole thread turned to money, but that was was just one facet of my argument against my kids going into medicine.

The brutal hours that never fully normalize, inhumane treatment during a very long and expensive training, and increasing need to treat patients as you are told to do so by an algorithm concocted by an MBA. And the push push push to go faster. I can’t take the time I need and there is no wiggle room for a complex case. And insurance reimbursement drives so much of what I am allowed to do.

It seems that many here think doctors just should be happy. Well, they are not. So they are retiring in droves or moving to industry. Which is why we have a shortage, the ones who are sticking it out are overstretched, and it’s increasingly hard to get an appointment with a doc (even for those in of us who can “phone a friend”). Surely people understand that there is a reason for that? It’s not just a few random whiners on DCUM.

Ruth they are retiring because it is a harder work environment for all workers, but they have made a crap ton of money and thus cash retire early.

[Anonymous]

I’m still chuckling about the doctor complaining about ageism at 70.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP with family friend at SEC.

I feel like this whole thread turned to money, but that was was just one facet of my argument against my kids going into medicine.

The brutal hours that never fully normalize, inhumane treatment during a very long and expensive training, and increasing need to treat patients as you are told to do so by an algorithm concocted by an MBA. And the push push push to go faster. I can’t take the time I need and there is no wiggle room for a complex case. And insurance reimbursement drives so much of what I am allowed to do.

It seems that many here think doctors just should be happy. Well, they are not. So they are retiring in droves or moving to industry. Which is why we have a shortage, the ones who are sticking it out are overstretched, and it’s increasingly hard to get an appointment with a doc (even for those of us who can “phone a friend”). Surely people understand that there is a reason for that? It’s not just a few random whiners on DCUM.

What’s the alternative though? Sit at a desk all day and watch your life drain away? Become an MBA themselves and lose any sense of humanity and compassion?

[Anonymous]

Hey OP and other doctors! The people responding to you and saying you have it so good are the same people who jump on teachers when we point out what we don't like about our job. I'd bet money it's the same 2-3 people. I've learned to try and ignore people who purposely try to undermine me or try to not understand. FWIW,I wouldn't want my kids in medicine either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m still chuckling about the doctor complaining about ageism at 70.

We often start our first real job making a real salary at age 35. Not at 22. And we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP with family friend at SEC.

I feel like this whole thread turned to money, but that was was just one facet of my argument against my kids going into medicine.

The brutal hours that never fully normalize, inhumane treatment during a very long and expensive training, and increasing need to treat patients as you are told to do so by an algorithm concocted by an MBA. And the push push push to go faster. I can’t take the time I need and there is no wiggle room for a complex case. And insurance reimbursement drives so much of what I am allowed to do.

It seems that many here think doctors just should be happy. Well, they are not. So they are retiring in droves or moving to industry. Which is why we have a shortage, the ones who are sticking it out are overstretched, and it’s increasingly hard to get an appointment with a doc (even for those of us who can “phone a friend”). Surely people understand that there is a reason for that? It’s not just a few random whiners on DCUM.

If it makes you feel better most lawyers have the same issues regarding doing more with less. Sure there's biglaw corp clients with tons of money but your average lawyer with retail clients is under a lot of pressure to keep the bills reasonable. Perhaps the inly reason there isn't a shortage of lawyers is because law schools have basically abandoned admissions standards and the bar exam isn't all that rigorous if you put in some time studying.

[Anonymous]

Before my son went to medical school I encouraged him to meet with every doctor we knew to understand the pluses and minuses.I also introduced him to people I knew in investment banking and private equity so he could understand the pluses and minuses in those areas. He certainly knew a lot about my business career and its pluses and minuses. Hopefully, when he went into medical school he did it with his eyes wide open. He seems very content as a doctor but I’m sure he has frustrations but are they any worse than in any other professional career?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have four doctors in my family. All of them went to med school straight from college. None of them have had grown up jobs other than being doctors. They all act like being a doctor is the worst job on earth.

They have no clue because they have never HAD other jobs. They've never had to try to hustle to make it in law, finance, consulting, etc. They don't know how much non medical jobs can suck as well. They are completely clueless as to how it feels to try to get a job, keep a job, worry about job security, because they have always been in demand and have never had to worry about those things.

I think this is true of many doctors. They're clueless as to how good they have it in many ways.

Seriously, they make a crap ton of money, almost guaranteed for life. They can down shift to PT when kids are in the picture, their is almost zero ageism in medicine, and never will be laid off.

Sure there are certain roles like surgery where people die on a regular basis in your hands, but your average dermatologist or rheumatologist is doing fine.

Almost nothing here is completely true.

-Doctors in Maryland make good money, but my government lawyer friends make more than I do (I'm in a speciality that is mid-range for pay). I work 50-60 hour weeks plus occasional nights and weekends (to be fair, my hours have gotten worse since Covid and the doctor shortage). Not many government lawyers have to answer phone calls all night long and then go work a 11 hour day the next day.
- not sure where you heard that we can go PT on a whim. Many hospital systems and academic centers don’t allow part time for MDs.
- non-competes are standard in medicine, so many of us are trapped in jobs that we hate because our spouse has a job in this area. To change jobs we’d have to move our family far away or to another state.
- of course there is ageism! And older doctors are well-paid, so they get pushed out first. My friend who works at Johns Hopkins said the institution was essentially forcing doctors to retire at 70 a few years ago. Not sure if they stopped due to the current shortage of doctors.
- regulations are so complex that it’s very difficult to have your own practice. Therefore, most of us on the coasts now work for a corporate overlord. They just keep squeezing us - if my workload get increaed and I’m told to “work smarter not harder!” one more time I’m going to scream.
-The training is brutal. It’s years and years of really hard work and getting yelled at and insulted. And if you screw up, someone could die. It’s hard for me to stomach my kids being treated like I was in training. I trained before the work hours regulations, and it abusive and high stakes with a lot of sleep deprivation. I’ve been screamed and sworn at, called names, and had pens books and medical instruments thrown at me by some attending throwing a temper tantrum over administrative issues or staff mistakes that were not in my purview. This kind of drama does make for good TV, but it kind of breaks your spirit in real life. I’m not as nice of a person as I think would’ve been. Like my kids would say that their teacher was mean, and I’d practically snarl at “that’s the just the way life is! Suck it up and Don’t be WEAK!” My kids say I was pretty harsh.
- Lots of doctors I know had a “real job” for 2-5 years before going to med school. We know it’s not perfect anywhere, but medicine has gotten really awful in the last 5 years and it was accelerated by Covid.

As an aside, patients don’t die on a regular basis in surgery - unless it’s a particularly high-stakes speciality like CT or trauma. (Honestly the anesthesiologists are really good at keeping people alive.) That’s just an odd thing to say… not sure you know much about the current practice of medicine.

+1000. Poorly paid pediatrician here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still chuckling about the doctor complaining about ageism at 70.

We often start our first real job making a real salary at age 35. Not at 22. And we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt

You are only unpaid 4 of those years and that's only if you're spoiled or a poor planner and don't work in undergrad.

Yes there's a lot of debt but I also have known far too many med students and residents that don't live within their means and rather showboat than be fiscally disciplined.