Howard and Anne Arundel delays high school start time to healthier times. Will MCPS follow?

[Anonymous]

Yeah I’ve done the early ES start time for a kid. And getting everyone up and out the door at the crack of dawn was its own nightmare. Contrary to popular belief, just because little kids may wake up earlier (may be the key word here), doesn’t mean they relish dressing and starting learning that early in the morning. I might could see it if they extend the ES day and they got a morning recess out of it. But barring that, I’d much rather have a HS have the earlier schedule. By then they should be trained to get themselves to bed and up in the morning. Might it suck a bit, yes, but hey that’s life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Oh sweetie, you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

And yet many many kids manage this elsewhere. MCPS is full of the biggest snowflakes ever, it’s hilarious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. If they are concerned about health, the High School and elementary school start times should be flipped.

My kid has sports directly after school. They wouldn't get to do their sports which would even more directly impact their health. Kids work, have activities, sports, which make it much harder to get out later. Plus, the bus issue.

Yes, and in AACPS kids still do sports directly after school. Why do you think sports would be cancelled if school started an hour later?

Their teams suck though! Probably because practices are shorter. DOn't shortchange kids sports, it's important because PE is a joke!

Kids do outside sports. Wasn't talking about MCPS sports.

Yeah our travel soccer would be severely impacted if school went later. I know families in Howard county that had to drop out.

Howard start times have not changed yet, so that’s interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

It depends on the kid. My kid never needed 11 hours of sleep and its fine on 7-8.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Don’t you get it? They need 3 more hours of sleep! Going to bed at 8 pm is like going to bed at 11 pm for teenagers. My first grader has trouble going to bed at 8pm and often delay to 9ish and getting up at 8 am is hard for him. Every morning I struggle with getting him up to catch a bus at 8:30 am.

This sounds like a parenting issue and the rest of the county should not have to adjust because you cannot get your kid up and ready for school. You could also drive him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. If they are concerned about health, the High School and elementary school start times should be flipped.

You don't want early elementary students waiting in the dark for the bus. Doesn't matter if you start high school at 7:30am or 11:30am, kids will be tired and the kids that are late will still be late. Also starting high school earlier allows for more options for extracurriculars and for them to work part time jobs. Suck it up, drink some caffeine and go to school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. If they are concerned about health, the High School and elementary school start times should be flipped.

You don't want early elementary students waiting in the dark for the bus. Doesn't matter if you start high school at 7:30am or 11:30am, kids will be tired and the kids that are late will still be late. Also starting high school earlier allows for more options for extracurriculars and for them to work part time jobs. Suck it up, drink some caffeine and go to school.

What will happen is HS kids will get home later from activities/sports and work and then homework so they will just go to bed later and parents will have the same complain. The complaining parents could drive their kid to school to cut down on bus time or consider their kid schedule and enforce bedtime if sleep is an issue. But, wait, that would call for parenting and many parents just check out by HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Don’t you get it? They need 3 more hours of sleep! Going to bed at 8 pm is like going to bed at 11 pm for teenagers. My first grader has trouble going to bed at 8pm and often delay to 9ish and getting up at 8 am is hard for him. Every morning I struggle with getting him up to catch a bus at 8:30 am.

This sounds like a parenting issue and the rest of the county should not have to adjust because you cannot get your kid up and ready for school. You could also drive him.

What are you talking about? There is no adjustment needed to keep the current schedule. But swapping ES and HS start time makes the the whole county adjust their schedule. Seems you have reading issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course, there are pros and cons in every scenario. You need to get your priorities straight. If you are mostly concerned about teenage health, depression, etc you can make starting HS later a priority and work around that. If not, then no point to discuss.

+100000

BOE does not care even a bit about mental health of teens. It's a pointless discussion.

Anyone caring about teens mental heath would have flipped it long time back like some counties have done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Don’t you get it? They need 3 more hours of sleep! Going to bed at 8 pm is like going to bed at 11 pm for teenagers. My first grader has trouble going to bed at 8pm and often delay to 9ish and getting up at 8 am is hard for him. Every morning I struggle with getting him up to catch a bus at 8:30 am.

This sounds like a parenting issue and the rest of the county should not have to adjust because you cannot get your kid up and ready for school. You could also drive him.

What are you talking about? There is no adjustment needed to keep the current schedule. But swapping ES and HS start time makes the the whole county adjust their schedule. Seems you have reading issues.

No, it doesn't make sense to swap the times. HS kids have homework, ES rarely do or very little. HS kids have sports, activities, volunteer jobs, drivers ed, employment, have to babysit younger kids, and many other things after school. Pushing the time back will only push the schedule back and they will just go to bed later. You seem to have logic issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course, there are pros and cons in every scenario. You need to get your priorities straight. If you are mostly concerned about teenage health, depression, etc you can make starting HS later a priority and work around that. If not, then no point to discuss.

+100000

BOE does not care even a bit about mental health of teens. It's a pointless discussion.

Anyone caring about teens mental heath would have flipped it long time back like some counties have done.

Mental health is not the BOE's problem. It's a parenting problem. I care about my child's mental health and they already have a full schedule and pushing start time back means they cannot do things they'd enjoy. Clearly you care more about your needs than other kids needs who may be different from yours. If your kids have mental health issues, get them therapist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course, there are pros and cons in every scenario. You need to get your priorities straight. If you are mostly concerned about teenage health, depression, etc you can make starting HS later a priority and work around that. If not, then no point to discuss.

+100000

BOE does not care even a bit about mental health of teens. It's a pointless discussion.

Anyone caring about teens mental heath would have flipped it long time back like some counties have done.

Mental health is not the BOE's problem. It's a parenting problem. I care about my child's mental health and they already have a full schedule and pushing start time back means they cannot do things they'd enjoy. Clearly you care more about your needs than other kids needs who may be different from yours. If your kids have mental health issues, get them therapist.

I am a mental health professional with kids in ES, lol.

Try to educate yourself a bit about how teens sleep cycles are different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course, there are pros and cons in every scenario. You need to get your priorities straight. If you are mostly concerned about teenage health, depression, etc you can make starting HS later a priority and work around that. If not, then no point to discuss.

+100000

BOE does not care even a bit about mental health of teens. It's a pointless discussion.

Anyone caring about teens mental heath would have flipped it long time back like some counties have done.

Mental health is not the BOE's problem. It's a parenting problem.

If MCPS is adding to problem then it's MCPS responsibility. Here they are adding to problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. If they are concerned about health, the High School and elementary school start times should be flipped.

My kid has sports directly after school. They wouldn't get to do their sports which would even more directly impact their health. Kids work, have activities, sports, which make it much harder to get out later. Plus, the bus issue.

Yes, and in AACPS kids still do sports directly after school. Why do you think sports would be cancelled if school started an hour later?

Their teams suck though! Probably because practices are shorter. DOn't shortchange kids sports, it's important because PE is a joke!

Kids do outside sports. Wasn't talking about MCPS sports.

Yeah our travel soccer would be severely impacted if school went later. I know families in Howard county that had to drop out.

Howard start times have not changed yet, so that’s interesting.

LOL. Good job calling out the liar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. If they are concerned about health, the High School and elementary school start times should be flipped.

You don't want early elementary students waiting in the dark for the bus. Doesn't matter if you start high school at 7:30am or 11:30am, kids will be tired and the kids that are late will still be late. Also starting high school earlier allows for more options for extracurriculars and for them to work part time jobs. Suck it up, drink some caffeine and go to school.

But I only care about my kid who is in HS. I don't really care about your ES being tired and kid waiting in the dark.