Howard and Anne Arundel delays high school start time to healthier times. Will MCPS follow?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

Then try going to bed earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

I think my ears kid has circadian rhythms too, which makes things really difficult in that. Whatever choice is made, someone else gets the short end of the stick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

I think my ears kid has circadian rhythms too, which makes things really difficult in that. Whatever choice is made, someone else gets the short end of the stick.

The best hack is to just set your clock forward 2 hours. It helps realign their circadian rhythms. The science behind this is foolproof honest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. Loudoun County does this (Elementary @ 7:50, Middle @ 8:50, HS @ 9:30). We love it.

For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't more discussion about or opposition to late elementary school start times. Maybe some kids sleep later, but I'm with the PP who had my kids up before 7:00 a.m. every day even though school started at 9:25 a.m. It's not like kids can go to the park or run around in the morning without needing a shower, so these start times force sedentary activities before school and leave little time after school for family or play.

This! My MS and HS kids have no problem getting out the door for the bus. The ES years with a 925 start time were hell for kids and especially for working parents.

Anyway, just accept this whole mess is one of the many negative consequences of having such a geographically huge school district. It's never going to change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

I think my ears kid has circadian rhythms too, which makes things really difficult in that. Whatever choice is made, someone else gets the short end of the stick.

The best hack is to just set your clock forward 2 hours. It helps realign their circadian rhythms. The science behind this is foolproof honest.

I tried that and it totally aligns my chakras with my circadian rhythms and I never felt so rested!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

Then try going to bed earlier.

If the ES kids need to catch 7 am bus, then to get 11 hours sleep they need to go to bed at 7 pm. How is that possible? Get your HS kid sleep earlier!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. Loudoun County does this (Elementary @ 7:50, Middle @ 8:50, HS @ 9:30). We love it.

For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't more discussion about or opposition to late elementary school start times. Maybe some kids sleep later, but I'm with the PP who had my kids up before 7:00 a.m. every day even though school started at 9:25 a.m. It's not like kids can go to the park or run around in the morning without needing a shower, so these start times force sedentary activities before school and leave little time after school for family or play.

This! My MS and HS kids have no problem getting out the door for the bus. The ES years with a 925 start time were hell for kids and especially for working parents.

Anyway, just accept this whole mess is one of the many negative consequences of having such a geographically huge school district. It's never going to change.

Agree 925 is hell. But majority of ES school starts at 9. The bus comes at 8:20-8:30 which is not late at all. Maybe ask MCPS to have more buses so all ES can start at 9.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

Then try going to bed earlier.

If the ES kids need to catch 7 am bus, then to get 11 hours sleep they need to go to bed at 7 pm. How is that possible? Get your HS kid sleep earlier!

Agree. My youngest is in 2nd and currently goes to bed at 8:00-8:30pm and is up at 8:00am. I could not imagine trying to get them to sleep by 6:30pm. I have 3 other kids in sports, activities, and my husband is lucky to make it home by 6pm.

My teen goes to bed at 10:30pm every night and is up at 6:30am. Much more doable. Now her phone is going off past midnight which tells me many of her peers are staying up much later.

You also can not have young ES students walking to bus stops or crossing streets, or riding bikes to school in the dark during the winter months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8 and 8:30 am. I know MCPS delayed to 7:45 several years ago. But is that enough?

They already went over this and the problem is that changing high school times would negatively impact elementary and middle school times

Blah blah blah.I spent years and years waiting for elementary school to start at 9:25. My kids would get up at 6:30 and there almost 3 hours til school started. Send those kids to school earlier!

Seriously. Loudoun County does this (Elementary @ 7:50, Middle @ 8:50, HS @ 9:30). We love it.

For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't more discussion about or opposition to late elementary school start times. Maybe some kids sleep later, but I'm with the PP who had my kids up before 7:00 a.m. every day even though school started at 9:25 a.m. It's not like kids can go to the park or run around in the morning without needing a shower, so these start times force sedentary activities before school and leave little time after school for family or play.

This! My MS and HS kids have no problem getting out the door for the bus. The ES years with a 925 start time were hell for kids and especially for working parents.

Anyway, just accept this whole mess is one of the many negative consequences of having such a geographically huge school district. It's never going to change.

My kids sleep until 8:00am and on the bus at 8:30am. I can get to work just fine. I start at 9am. I don't want to be up at 5:30-6:00am in the dark getting young kids ready for school

If you switch these times kids that need longer sleep aren't getting it, kids are getting down school at 2:30pm so you are still paying for childcare one way or another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Oh sweetie, you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Hey Monifa, did you move to Montgomery county yet?

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Oh sweetie, you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Hey Monifa, did you move to Montgomery county yet?

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Oh sweetie, you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

Hey Monifa, did you move to Montgomery county yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Don’t you get it? They need 3 more hours of sleep! Going to bed at 8 pm is like going to bed at 11 pm for teenagers. My first grader has trouble going to bed at 8pm and often delay to 9ish and getting up at 8 am is hard for him. Every morning I struggle with getting him up to catch a bus at 8:30 am.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in AACPS. Literally every concern/issue/complaint in this thread about why it "can't" happen in MoCo was raised in AACPS as well.

The busses did, indeed, end up being a bit of a fiasco this year, but it sounds like that's been an across-the-board issue with the lack of bus drivers, just slightly exacerbated by the new start times.

The rest of the issue work themselves out.
Sure, some families relied on the high school kids to pick up the elementary school kids, and so now they need after care. But you also had a bunch of families who no longer need morning care, because their high school kid can get the elem kid to school, or the parents can now take them on their way to work. And of course After care for elem kids shifted their times.

Extra curriculars shifted their times - some are now before school and some are just a little later.

It's too soon to see if it makes any direct difference in student achievement, but after a TON of hand wringing over the last year and a half, people have now basically adjusted and everything is fine - and the teenagers are getting more sleep.

Why would people think teenagers need more sleep than ES kids?

The science is clear that the natural circadian rhythm for teens is later than for ES kids or adults.

Here's just one:

"Early start time was associated with significant sleep deprivation and daytime sleepiness. The occurrence of REM sleep on MSLT indicates that clinicians should exercise caution in interpreting MSLT REM sleep in adolescents evaluated on their “usual” schedules. Psychosocial influences and changes in bioregulatory systems controlling sleep may limit teenagers' capacities to make adequate adjustments to an early school schedule."
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/21/8/871/2726004

But HS need 8-9 hours

A kindergarten kid needs 11 hours

And kindergarteners have no problem going to bed at 8pm. No teenager is going to be able to do that.

Math isn’t your specialty, is it?