Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

I posted earlier about my dyslexic kid being in a classroom with an aide and also very disruptive kids.

I'm sure there are a percentage of kids out there who are traumatized or don't have actual parents or have serious DMDD or ODD or whatever.

Those are not the kids I'm talking about - these kids in DS' classes largely have serious ADHD and/or anxiety (usually both). Since DS has had dyslexia his whole life (lol), I do know many of these kids and parents personally.

These parents are typically good parents doing the best they can. The kids can be completely reasonable at times and total a$$hats at other times. I've had to watch kids take all their pills at night when my DS has a sleepover at their parent's request. I've had to basically tie a coat to some kids when we take them on outings outside and it's legitimately freezing but they'll fling their coats otherwise. I've had to say absolutely no more trips to the movie theater with Jimmy or Ryan because they can't stop themselves from throwing skittles during the movie - these kids are 13, not 3.

These kids 100% belong in public school and in the least restrictive environment but I struggle with the fact that I don't want them in the classroom with my kid because they can't stop themselves from being disruptive/fighting/throwing things/cussing out their teachers.

Our only option is to get my kid out of these supportive classes. He has to make his way on his own. Luckily he can do that after the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours spent on 1:1 remediation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We know. What’s the alternative? $50k a year per kid?

Parochial schools are much, much cheaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just talked to my 80yo father about this, I was saying how if school was like this when I was a kid, I didn't notice. He said by the time I would notice, I would have been grouped in with the elite kids. Which happened by 4th grade in the 1980s. I never had a class again with anyone not above-average IQ.

My Dad said that in his day (born 1943 in hillbilly country), there were 15-16 year olds in the 4th and 5th grades. The teachers would not advance them if they didn't prove what they needed to learn in order to advance! At 16 obviously they dropped out, or earlier if they became parents. Those were kids who were low IQ or learning disabled. But if a child had behavioral issues that were disruptive? In that case, they didn't go to school. They had a teacher visit them in their home. My grandmother, my father's mother, did this work. She did art classes at homes for the kids who could not attend school because of their disruptive and violent behaviors.

Not saying any of the above is right. I appreciated the history.

I am a bit shocked at what I have seen. Teachers (saints!) trying to deal with a 1st grade class that ranges from extreme special needs to high intellectual ability. At 1st grade, the IEPs haven't been started/processed etc. It's unbelievable they get anything done at all, but they do their best.

But overall I think it's better to include than exclude. Kids in the past were excluded wrongly -- this is the missing part of my Dad's all-white-person story: black kids were not even considered, not allowed to go to the same school in his town. And I bet my grandmother only visited white families for her art class visits. Toxic racism is behind much of where we were and where we are today.

Teacher visiting disruptive kids at their home is really the best solution. Then parents can’t complain about abuse happening at a special facility, and also the kid is in a familiar environment every day without disruptions themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I don’t disagree that disruptive or violent kids don’t belong in mainstream classrooms and that FAPE needs a *massive* overhaul, but there is already a teacher shortage, and a dire teacher shortage in special ed. Where exactly are you planning to get all the teachers and staff for these metal detector schools again?

Obviously the teachers in those special schools will be paid more. There will be teachers signing up for that. Many of them deal with it already for only regular pay. Other teachers will come back to the profession when they see the conditions improving in the mainstream schools.

And as for the money, it won’t take $22k average per student anymore in mainstream classes once they remove the disruptive kids. That extra money can offset the cost of the special schools (or home visits which might be a better approach to educating those kids).

[Anonymous]

If by law, we are required to provide an education to all K-12, they should open more schools for chronically troubled kids. I know there's one in Burke VA. Sounds like they need more. It's terrible that the "normal" kids have to pay the price for the handful of troublemakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

It’s really gross that some posters keep trying to insist that having violent or highly verbally disruptive kids in the classroom is the same thing as having a child in a wheel chair sitting there or good forbid a black child (?!!) in the classroom. There’s something really wrong with you if you honestly think that.

The distinction is clear - when the teacher has to literally stop classes to reprimand someone, try to keep them on task, chase them because they ran outside, evacuate all tye other kids in the classroom because a child is screaming or destroying things. Those kids clearly do not belong in the classroom. Kids who stop the teachers from teaching do not belong in the classroom. They are the kids we’re talking about.

[Anonymous]

I completely agree OP. My kids are in MS and HS and don’t want to leave for private (we offered.) They are in all honors and have good EC’s and good friends so I think that helps. But the atmosphere at the schools is not great and there are a lot of behavioral issues that are really disruptive. I’m continually shocked how the educational experience of the masses is sacrificed to benefit just a few in the name of FAPE and LRE. I’ve told my husband that I am planning to offer to send all of our grandchildren to private school.

[Anonymous]

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet.

OP, I grew up in an affluent suburb and attended a top public school. When I got my first job teaching, I was really shocked, and I blamed the parents and the culture instead of societal ills like poverty and racism. But I was wrong, and the problem was my lack of real world experience.

Why would it be shocking that public schools enroll everyone? Why is a lower-maintenance kid more valuable than one with extra needs? Be careful not to adultify children . . . they may be saying bad words, but they are 7 years old. They're just playing at being cool; they're not actually little gangsters. I remember seeing movies like Dirty Dancing and Pretty Woman when I was a kid; I totally didn't pick up on things like abortion and condoms.

Your post brings up some important questions. Who are we as a society? What does a public good really mean, and who is it for? What does it look like to meet people, especially children, where they are? What supports do our teachers need?

I send my kids to public schools, and not even "good" ones. I don't want them to be like me, shocked and uncomfortable when encountering the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If by law, we are required to provide an education to all K-12, they should open more schools for chronically troubled kids. I know there's one in Burke VA. Sounds like they need more. It's terrible that the "normal" kids have to pay the price for the handful of troublemakers.

MCPS used to have on (Mark Twain) and it was shut down with great fanfare 20-ish years ago, so now the troublesome kids remain in the mainstream schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for rich people who want their kids insulated.

How about we put all those kids in privates instead. That will even out the playing field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

It’s really gross that some posters keep trying to insist that having violent or highly verbally disruptive kids in the classroom is the same thing as having a child in a wheel chair sitting there or good forbid a black child (?!!) in the classroom. There’s something really wrong with you if you honestly think that.

The distinction is clear - when the teacher has to literally stop classes to reprimand someone, try to keep them on task, chase them because they ran outside, evacuate all tye other kids in the classroom because a child is screaming or destroying things. Those kids clearly do not belong in the classroom. Kids who stop the teachers from teaching do not belong in the classroom. They are the kids we’re talking about.

DP, but I believe PPs are citing those examples because some people have referred to the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (and FAPE and LRE etc etc etc) and were using OPs examples to justify their reasoning as to why they believe the act ruined the public school system. I think what some people are trying to point out is that, actually, the law doesn’t just apply to violent or highly verbally disruptive kids. It protects everyone with a disability (children with dyslexia, adhd, cerebral palsy etc etc etc). So really, in regards to the protections given under IDEA, it is the same.

[Anonymous]

It’s a slaughter game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

There are 2 completely different things here that you’re acting as if are one thing for the “standards for inclusion”. There’s the current law, and then there’s what the law should be. One is crap, the other doesn’t need to be crap because in this country, the people (that’s us) make the laws. If we don’t like a law or it’s not working for us anymore or the consequences aren’t what we expected or wanted to happen, it should be changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

There are 2 completely different things here that you’re acting as if are one thing for the “standards for inclusion”. There’s the current law, and then there’s what the law should be. One is crap, the other doesn’t need to be crap because in this country, the people (that’s us) make the laws. If we don’t like a law or it’s not working for us anymore or the consequences aren’t what we expected or wanted to happen, it should be changed.

What should the law be then?