Is everyone just stunned that we’ve stepped back 50 years in time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

The Supreme Court didn’t rule that abortion is murder or even that it is wrong. They may believe that but the ruling is that no Constitutionally protected rights are involved so states are free to ban it or allow it or regulate it as they see fit.

They tossed aside precedent and stare decisis, lied in their confirmation, and are injecting religiously based jurisprudence into their rulings which will upend medical care for millions where it didn’t previously exist, but sure, it’s all so innocuous. I mean hey why get upset right? Lol.

DP. You can repeat this lie as much as you want, but no one lied. Period. Try acting like an adult.

It's not a lie, it's the truth.
- DP

Sorry, AOC. You’re wrong.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lying-gop-roe-wade-supreme-court/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/06/28/did-supreme-court-justices-lie-by-claiming-they-wouldnt-overturn-roe-v-wade-heres-what-they-actually-said/

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/05/what-gorsuch-kavanaugh-and-barrett-said-about-roe-at-confirmation-hearings/

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/scotus-verify/what-justices-gorsuch-barrett-kavanaugh-said-roe-v-wade-confirmation-hearings/536-cdc8cbaa-cf81-4db9-a861-05ea5fbcb05a

Yes, everybody knows they danced around the issue becayse they didn't have the integrity to outright state their intent. It's still less than straightforward, and deceptive. Susan Collins agrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not stunned at all. The Supreme Court did women a grave disservice 50 years ago by establishing a right to an abortion as a right to privacy. The argument was weak, flawed, and gave conservatives a very easy target to go after. For decades conservatives mobilized, organized and strategized. At the same time liberals stupidly thought Roe was settled law or there was no chance that Roe could ever be overturned. Friday was the inevitable outcome.

Bit more than that.

Why revisit the case? It had survived challenges before. Why now? The ink hadn’t even dried on Amy coney Barret swearing in and yet bang they took it and overturned it. They are a partisan court and everyone who isn’t going along for the rise can see it.

Pretty soon gay rights will be gone and birth control. This is oppression and it’s slow and creeping.

Because conservatives were ALWAYS going to revisit the case. The fact that it was sh*tty constitutional law made it even easier to overturn.

Friday was the culmination of years of planning.

What did people think March for Life over the past several decades was about? I swear people live in their own bubbles under rocks. The PP is exactly right. It’s like people in the DC metro area especially DCUM acting like Jan 6 was a surprise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This “states rights” thing is what is scaring me.

About ten years ago I was a BBQ in central Virginia (I grew up in the northeast). This highly educated guy was saying that the civil war wasn’t about slavery it was about states rights. Was first I heard that and thought he was bonkers. Gave him a “you’re kidding, right?” look. He was dead serious. Over the past ten years I have met many people who use “states rights” as the ONLY reason for the civil war.

Okay for states to decide about slavery; now it’s okay for states to tell women they have to stay pregnant. Frightening.

that's because that is what their crappy schools have been teaching them since they were little

and I don't want to live in a country that has different rules regarding women's rights from state to state. What a Sh!thole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or is there just apathy? I cant tell.

Between abortion and the three recent Supreme Court cases siding with organized religion, it seems like we are just heading back to a time of superstition.

I mean really what the fk just happened? What is this?

No not stunned. These are the correct decisions and should never have been made in the first place. Congress should have addresed abortion. They are the failure here. It was never a Consitutional protection. The religion stuff is right. Read the 1st amendment. Courts went sideways on this long ago.

Exactly. This is a job for Congress and the democratic process - good for the justices for recognizing this. They’re not there to legislate.

+1

Except that Roe has been the case law for 50 years, impacts millions of women, was supposedly settled. obviously, to a fascist, sending it to congress is a “good” idea, in the sense that anyone who understands legislation knows that it has no chance at becoming law. Also, this case opens up the door to end gay marriage and gay sex and all that other icky stuff Jesus doesn’t like apparently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or is there just apathy? I cant tell.

Between abortion and the three recent Supreme Court cases siding with organized religion, it seems like we are just heading back to a time of superstition.

I mean really what the fk just happened? What is this?

No not stunned. These are the correct decisions and should never have been made in the first place. Congress should have addresed abortion. They are the failure here. It was never a Consitutional protection. The religion stuff is right. Read the 1st amendment. Courts went sideways on this long ago.

Exactly. This is a job for Congress and the democratic process - good for the justices for recognizing this. They’re not there to legislate.

+1

Except that Roe has been the case law for 50 years, impacts millions of women, was supposedly settled. obviously, to a fascist, sending it to congress is a “good” idea, in the sense that anyone who understands legislation knows that it has no chance at becoming law. Also, this case opens up the door to end gay marriage and gay sex and all that other icky stuff Jesus doesn’t like apparently.[/quote
What I mean was returning it to the states is a funny argument in how smug it is. You know the states will ban it. You know the republicans will soon try to enact a large ban. You know they’ll use it to try into inject their twisted, religiously motivated anxiety and guilt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

The Supreme Court didn’t rule that abortion is murder or even that it is wrong. They may believe that but the ruling is that no Constitutionally protected rights are involved so states are free to ban it or allow it or regulate it as they see fit.

They tossed aside precedent and stare decisis, lied in their confirmation, and are injecting religiously based jurisprudence into their rulings which will upend medical care for millions where it didn’t previously exist, but sure, it’s all so innocuous. I mean hey why get upset right? Lol.

DP. You can repeat this lie as much as you want, but no one lied. Period. Try acting like an adult.

It's not a lie, it's the truth.
- DP

Sorry, AOC. You’re wrong.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lying-gop-roe-wade-supreme-court/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/06/28/did-supreme-court-justices-lie-by-claiming-they-wouldnt-overturn-roe-v-wade-heres-what-they-actually-said/

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/05/what-gorsuch-kavanaugh-and-barrett-said-about-roe-at-confirmation-hearings/

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/scotus-verify/what-justices-gorsuch-barrett-kavanaugh-said-roe-v-wade-confirmation-hearings/536-cdc8cbaa-cf81-4db9-a861-05ea5fbcb05a

Yes, everybody knows they danced around the issue becayse they didn't have the integrity to outright state their intent. It's still less than straightforward, and deceptive. Susan Collins agrees.

They clearly deceived their way into those seats. They are illegitimate and should be removed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

People absolutely have the right to vote on issues. That is what happens in democracy. People don't agree. People vote. Majority rules. States that have liberal majorities will enact liberal laws. States with conservative majorities enact conservative laws. Such is the way of the constitution of these Great United States. Don't like it? Try China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This “states rights” thing is what is scaring me.

About ten years ago I was a BBQ in central Virginia (I grew up in the northeast). This highly educated guy was saying that the civil war wasn’t about slavery it was about states rights. Was first I heard that and thought he was bonkers. Gave him a “you’re kidding, right?” look. He was dead serious. Over the past ten years I have met many people who use “states rights” as the ONLY reason for the civil war.

Okay for states to decide about slavery; now it’s okay for states to tell women they have to stay pregnant. Frightening.

that's because that is what their crappy schools have been teaching them since they were little

and I don't want to live in a country that has different rules regarding women's rights from state to state. What a Sh!thole.

That's how it should be on every issue.

Then people who want to live in Jesusland can live in Jesusland, and people that want to live in the glorious workers paradise can live in their glorious workers paradise. People can natural move to places that match their politics. Some states will prosper and others will not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This “states rights” thing is what is scaring me.

About ten years ago I was a BBQ in central Virginia (I grew up in the northeast). This highly educated guy was saying that the civil war wasn’t about slavery it was about states rights. Was first I heard that and thought he was bonkers. Gave him a “you’re kidding, right?” look. He was dead serious. Over the past ten years I have met many people who use “states rights” as the ONLY reason for the civil war.

Okay for states to decide about slavery; now it’s okay for states to tell women they have to stay pregnant. Frightening.

that's because that is what their crappy schools have been teaching them since they were little

and I don't want to live in a country that has different rules regarding women's rights from state to state. What a Sh!thole.

That's how it should be on every issue.

Then people who want to live in Jesusland can live in Jesusland, and people that want to live in the glorious workers paradise can live in their glorious workers paradise. People can natural move to places that match their politics. Some states will prosper and others will not.

then they should be in a different COUNTRY, not just different states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

People absolutely have the right to vote on issues. That is what happens in democracy. People don't agree. People vote. Majority rules. States that have liberal majorities will enact liberal laws. States with conservative majorities enact conservative laws. Such is the way of the constitution of these Great United States. Don't like it? Try China.

States that want to be slave states make slavery legal. Deal with it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

People absolutely have the right to vote on issues. That is what happens in democracy. People don't agree. People vote. Majority rules. States that have liberal majorities will enact liberal laws. States with conservative majorities enact conservative laws. Such is the way of the constitution of these Great United States. Don't like it? Try China.

States that want to be slave states make slavery legal. Deal with it

right? I mean, there should be VERY basic things that citizenship in this country gets you. Freedom to make your own medical decisions should be one of them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously everyone is not stunned.

But I'm stunned that some liberals are still shocked that the majority doesn't always agree with everything they stand for. I'm shocked that some liberals think religious people shouldn't vote in accordance with their own values but liberals should be free to vote in accordance with theirs. I'm shocked that whenever a political party doesn't get it's way there's talk of receding and revolution. I'm shocked that so many people fall for Russian propoganda designed to separate us so we will more easily fall. But mostly I'm shocked at how so many people live in their own political bubble that they fool themselves into thinking "everyone" thinks the same as they do when in reality it's just the 10-20 people they hang around.

I’m not shocked at all. But it’s fundamentally anti American to believe that you should impose Christianity on us. It’s literally Amendment numero uno.

Sincerely believing that abortion is infanticide and opposing it for that reason isn't imposing Christianity on anyone, stop making false equivalencies. I know non religious folk, and non Christians that are anti-abortion. There is nothing anti-American about being opposed to abortion on the grounds that one sincerely believes that it is infanticide - according to that perspective banning abortion has nothing to do with violating ones rights any more than banning murder does. If you are unable to empathize with or understand this perspective even if you think its fully wrong, and you have distilled all anti-abortion folks into only Southern, fundamentalist Christians who are literally out to violate women's rights because they get off on that, it is sad but it is not surprising given how divided this country is. Folks on the right do the same thing - view pro abortion folks as blood thirsty / heathen baby killers when in reality most pro abortion folks sincerely believe that it isn't killing a child and it is just a medical procedure and therefore not allowing it is a major rights violation. My point is, have some empathy and understanding for folks from different backgrounds with different life experiences -- although it is easy to fall into the nihilist view that half of your country men are evil and out to get you and trample on your rights, this isn't the actual reality. Most folks on both sides are good human beings who believe what they believe sincerely.

ake this from a fellow pro-choice person who possibly just has different life views / experiences than you -

You must have missed the case about the praying football coach pp. Now prayer is allowed at school events and participants can be forced to pray, as this coach's players were, or deal with the consequences. This is definitely imposing Christianity or other religions in public school. And we still have more decisions to come. Yipppee, American Taliban!

Op here. This is what I meant. There have been a slew of “religious freedom” cases in the last month. The Christian flag case, the state funded tuition case, now this praying at the 50 yard line. Also, abortion is up there. It’s clear these folks are injecting their religious views into these cases. They’ve eroded any semblance of a church vs state separation. Then you’ve got Boebert today saying that separation is stupid.

At the core, and distilling all your dismissive hand waving of these clearly evident facts, is that you’ve got this fired up, energized mass of conservatives and religious nuts who know they’re losing the culture war and so they do all these underhanded tricks, both politically and socially, to try and stymie social progress. They’re well mobilized and funded by churches etc.

You’ve got Mitch not letting democrats get their judges on the court, but instead putting on Fed Soc sponsored zealots. And look at Clarence thomas that psychopath with the nutty wife who is an insurrectionist. They know they’re losing in the court of public opinion. They know the church is bleeding members, but they’ll do anything ot takes, even Christian nationalism type of aggressive tactics, to try to desperately try to ensure they can shove religion and bad science and poor health policy (no abortion) down our throats.

All they’ve done is energize the enlightened and educated folks who are now deathly afraid their gay friends will lose their insurance benefits, or their wife will die from an easily preventable pregancy related condition that could have been properly addressed in a pre-Roe struck down era. They see that their contraception is at stake or that even gay sex could be criminalized. Or that, yes, interracial marriage which rests on the same sort of legal principle or unenumerated rights, could be tossed out by some out of touch, old school, regressive, zealot justices.

So don’t play coy. Don’t even act like you have a “majority” thats a joke. You just have cunning politicians and dedicated nut bags with church money behind them to help funds batsht right wing loonies to the court.

I think both sides of the political spectrum have had great victories thanks to the supreme court. Gay marriage for many on the religious right was seen as a disaster a few years ago. Today many on the center and left view this new abortion ruling equally as a disaster. In my opinion, the reason why we got to this point is because people who support abortion never gave it full support. Opinion polls often reveal over half the country in support of abortion. However, once the issue is disaggregated further (i.e abortion at xyz weeks) then you have all kind of opinions. Unless we reach a point where people who support abortion support it without any restrictions, the side that is against abortion (which is laser focused because they are a firm NO) will continue to win. The debate should be framed more toward women's rights to choose and nothing else. But then again the Democrats are too distracted with semantics and woke stuff (sorry for borrowing a right wing term here). Sadly as a man I can just say this is another evidence that the United States continues to be truly a men-dominated world. Some will quickly argue that women in the north are "free",but many of those men in the north are not giving abortion the full support it deserves. They will quickly say beyond xyz week they are against it. Why should they care about any cutoff? The cutoff needs to be taken out of discussion then you will truly have 2 camps. As long as that grey area is there it gives those against abortion an advantage.

And finally the country is simply broken. If we all come to this conclusion then we can actually begin to fix it. Some think that the fact that all our major cultural issues are being decided by SCOTUS as opposed to Congress as a sign of a working democracy. I beg to differ here.

While I agree with some of your points, I think it is very sexist to suggest women are monolithic in their stances on abortion. Many moderate and conservative women on both sides of the aisle are not in support of unrestricted abortion and some even support full bans. This is not just a male vs female issue. It's not just a religious issue or political party issue. It's a moral values issue. And as you pointed out, opinions vary widely on both sides when it comes to the morality of an elective abortion of a viable fetus.

And yet, people do not have the right to impose their version of morality on others.

People absolutely have the right to vote on issues. That is what happens in democracy. People don't agree. People vote. Majority rules. States that have liberal majorities will enact liberal laws. States with conservative majorities enact conservative laws. Such is the way of the constitution of these Great United States. Don't like it? Try China.

States that want to be slave states make slavery legal. Deal with it

right? I mean, there should be VERY basic things that citizenship in this country gets you. Freedom to make your own medical decisions should be one of them

Of course. This decision is not some issue left to the states to strip away a fundamental right from women just because people vote to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This “states rights” thing is what is scaring me.

About ten years ago I was a BBQ in central Virginia (I grew up in the northeast). This highly educated guy was saying that the civil war wasn’t about slavery it was about states rights. Was first I heard that and thought he was bonkers. Gave him a “you’re kidding, right?” look. He was dead serious. Over the past ten years I have met many people who use “states rights” as the ONLY reason for the civil war.

Okay for states to decide about slavery; now it’s okay for states to tell women they have to stay pregnant. Frightening.

that's because that is what their crappy schools have been teaching them since they were little

and I don't want to live in a country that has different rules regarding women's rights from state to state. What a Sh!thole.

That's how it should be on every issue.

Then people who want to live in Jesusland can live in Jesusland, and people that want to live in the glorious workers paradise can live in their glorious workers paradise. People can natural move to places that match their politics. Some states will prosper and others will not.

then they should be in a different COUNTRY, not just different states

Thats more or less how it was pre-civil war and when the federal constitution wasn't binding on the states with a weak federal government with a limited role. Also 6 parts of the USA were once independent countries in the sense you may be familiar with.