Does Baptism mean that you those who are not Baptized won't go to heaven?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s an explanation of the relevant portion of the Catechism: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", means, if put in positive terms, that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body", and it "is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church".[43]

It should go without saying that salvation is a prerequisite to entering heaven. The exception is those who have had no exposure to Christ. They usually are considered to go to purgatory.

Where does it say that salvation requires baptism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a definition of salvation:

In Christianity, salvation (also called deliverance or redemption) is the "saving [of] human beings from sin and its consequences, which include death and separation from God" by Christ's death and resurrection,[1][a] and the justification following this salvation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity

Where is the connection to baptism?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

[Anonymous]

If these posters are Catholic, I’m starting to realize that the Jesuit Priest who taught my theology courses at Georgetown was right. So many Catholics are ignorant about their own religion.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

If “the possibility of asking for it” it required, isn’t infant baptism pointless?
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

Infants are under the age of reason (7), so their parents (and traditionally godparent) is meant to ensure their adherence to the Church. That’s why First Communion is so important. It’s the first time someone is supposed to take responsibility for their own salvation by performing the sacraments on their own. Of course, before you can receive communion, you’re supposed to go to confession, so inherent in receiving communion is taking responsibility for purifying yourself of sin by confessing them to a priest and then doing what he says (usually saying Our Father and Hail Mary).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

Infants are under the age of reason (7), so their parents (and traditionally godparent) is meant to ensure their adherence to the Church. That’s why First Communion is so important. It’s the first time someone is supposed to take responsibility for their own salvation by performing the sacraments on their own. Of course, before you can receive communion, you’re supposed to go to confession, so inherent in receiving communion is taking responsibility for purifying yourself of sin by confessing them to a priest and then doing what he says (usually saying Our Father and Hail Mary).

Why would I he Catholic Church encourage baptizing infants if baptism is a required part of salvation (access to heaven) and that salvation is predicated upon choice? Why not wait until the “age of reason”? And what happens to deaths before the “age of reason”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

Infants are under the age of reason (7), so their parents (and traditionally godparent) is meant to ensure their adherence to the Church. That’s why First Communion is so important. It’s the first time someone is supposed to take responsibility for their own salvation by performing the sacraments on their own. Of course, before you can receive communion, you’re supposed to go to confession, so inherent in receiving communion is taking responsibility for purifying yourself of sin by confessing them to a priest and then doing what he says (usually saying Our Father and Hail Mary).

Why would I he Catholic Church encourage baptizing infants if baptism is a required part of salvation (access to heaven) and that salvation is predicated upon choice? Why not wait until the “age of reason”? And what happens to deaths before the “age of reason”?

Because you really don’t want an infant to die without being baptized (due to original sin). I think they would go to purgatory if they’re not baptized, but if they’re baptized and they die, then they go to heaven because an infant cannot sin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

Infants are under the age of reason (7), so their parents (and traditionally godparent) is meant to ensure their adherence to the Church. That’s why First Communion is so important. It’s the first time someone is supposed to take responsibility for their own salvation by performing the sacraments on their own. Of course, before you can receive communion, you’re supposed to go to confession, so inherent in receiving communion is taking responsibility for purifying yourself of sin by confessing them to a priest and then doing what he says (usually saying Our Father and Hail Mary).

Why would I he Catholic Church encourage baptizing infants if baptism is a required part of salvation (access to heaven) and that salvation is predicated upon choice? Why not wait until the “age of reason”? And what happens to deaths before the “age of reason”?

Because you really don’t want an infant to die without being baptized (due to original sin). I think they would go to purgatory if they’re not baptized, but if they’re baptized and they die, then they go to heaven because an infant cannot sin.

So if I get baptized as an infant, and don’t even know God, and then am never again a believer, do I go heaven?
Or do I go to heaven only if I die before 7 (“the age of reason”), but not if I die at 10yo if I didn’t choose God between 7-10?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

Thank you. If “the possibility of asking for it” is relevant, isn’t infant baptism pointless?

Infants are under the age of reason (7), so their parents (and traditionally godparent) is meant to ensure their adherence to the Church. That’s why First Communion is so important. It’s the first time someone is supposed to take responsibility for their own salvation by performing the sacraments on their own. Of course, before you can receive communion, you’re supposed to go to confession, so inherent in receiving communion is taking responsibility for purifying yourself of sin by confessing them to a priest and then doing what he says (usually saying Our Father and Hail Mary).

Why would I he Catholic Church encourage baptizing infants if baptism is a required part of salvation (access to heaven) and that salvation is predicated upon choice? Why not wait until the “age of reason”? And what happens to deaths before the “age of reason”?

Because you really don’t want an infant to die without being baptized (due to original sin). I think they would go to purgatory if they’re not baptized, but if they’re baptized and they die, then they go to heaven because an infant cannot sin.

So if I get baptized as an infant, and don’t even know God, and then am never again a believer, do I go heaven?
Or do I go to heaven only if I die before 7 (“the age of reason”), but not if I die at 10yo if I didn’t choose God between 7-10?

So if you were baptized as an infant, but then you were adopted out to a family that never knew about the Gospel, I think you’d be fine?

The real issue after baptism is whether you were exposed to the Gospel and had the opportunity to accept it and follow it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If these posters are Catholic, I’m starting to realize that the Jesuit Priest who taught my theology courses at Georgetown was right. So many Catholics are ignorant about their own religion.

I don’t think these posters are Catholic. You can tell they are trolls and/or atheists, posing fake questions about fake children and then adding wikipedia information ‼️ to the thread. It’s such a waste of time.

Op has never returned, she’s SO CONCERNED, but never returns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If these posters are Catholic, I’m starting to realize that the Jesuit Priest who taught my theology courses at Georgetown was right. So many Catholics are ignorant about their own religion.

I don’t think these posters are Catholic. You can tell they are trolls and/or atheists, posing fake questions about fake children and then adding wikipedia information ‼️ to the thread. It’s such a waste of time.

Op has never returned, she’s SO CONCERNED, but never returns.

Can you explain why anything I’ve posted here is wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If these posters are Catholic, I’m starting to realize that the Jesuit Priest who taught my theology courses at Georgetown was right. So many Catholics are ignorant about their own religion.

I don’t think these posters are Catholic. You can tell they are trolls and/or atheists, posing fake questions about fake children and then adding wikipedia information ‼️ to the thread. It’s such a waste of time.

Op has never returned, she’s SO CONCERNED, but never returns.

By "Fake quetins about fake children" do you mean a hypothetical to try to understand what the person I am interacting with is saying?

Do you think this forum should be just for posters who all believe the same thing to share their belief? Debate or discussion not allowed?