Magnet high schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Many posters are unaware of the dramatic changes that MCPS implemented for selecting kids to be in compacted math this year. It is much, much less available than previous years.

That's true, and probably the right choice in general (not just due to pandemic). But MCPS has set a goal of getting (almost) every kid to Algebra I by 8th grade. You can't do that if you are pulling 1/3 of the kids off the grade-level math track. That's why I think PP amended their response. It's not "remedial" math, it's just grade level math that may be going slower.

It is interesting, though, that PP seems to be claiming that Compacted Math is no longer being taught separately from grade-level math. Are they all in the same room? Is that the new model?

I think I’m the PP. Sorry, I was obviously not clear!

The kids are divided up and each of the three groups has a separate teacher. The CES kids are also grouped with neighborhood kids for Math at our CES. So they are not in the same room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many people here are correlating low test scores with parental income and applauding that MCPS has tried to figure out a way to control for that.

While I personally think that makes sense in general I'm sure many of you are following what is happening in NY where people are making up different things to justify how they want the gifted programs to look in terms of racial make up. In NY most of the students in the gifted programs are FARMS but they are Asian-American. Then they make up other reasons why the demographics are slanted.

You can't have it both ways. It's like administrators everywhere are making up whatever reason suits them to try to reduce the number of Asian-Americans in the magnet systems. This is really wrong.

This isn't exactly right. Most students in gifted programs in New York are elementary-aged, and up until this year were admitted based on a test administered at 4 years old. That process was absolutely dominated by UMC families from a very small handful of neighborhoods.

You are twisting facts. This thread is about high school magnets and for sure the top schools are overwhelmingly Asian American who are FARMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

Wow. Just, wow. Racist, much?

It’s okay to be racist towards Asians though, amirite?

No, I’m not ‘an Asian’, but thanks for playing.

+1
It is really shocking how many people on this board think it's okay to be racist towards Asian Americans -but jump to the defense of other minority groups and think they are so progressive and better than everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

Wow. Just, wow. Racist, much?

It’s okay to be racist towards Asians though, amirite?

No, I’m not ‘an Asian’, but thanks for playing.

+1

" "we white families" all think alike, and forcing our kids to play travel sports and things like football is not child abuse, but forcing kids to study more math is child abuse."

FFS

I see some Eastern European white families push their kids in STEM. Are they excused from your "abuse" claims because they are white?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

Wow. Just, wow. Racist, much?

It’s okay to be racist towards Asians though, amirite?

No, I’m not ‘an Asian’, but thanks for playing.

+1
It is really shocking how many people on this board think it's okay to be racist towards Asian Americans -but jump to the defense of other minority groups and think they are so progressive and better than everyone.

why would you assume the PP is a progressive? IMO, some conservatives feel the same way about "over achieving" Asians whom they don't even consider to be real Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no problem with MCPS paying for tutoring and prep classes for under privileged children. I grew up lower income to uneducated immigrant parents who don't speak English.

But lowering the threshold doesn't serve the program, or the kids. Provide the support, but don't lower the expectations. All that does is provide a crutch for the kid. Life doesn't provide a crutch forever.

Yeah I agree with you and PP. Because there are more 99 percentile kids than spots in programs. Don’t lower standards. Provide opportunities to meet that standard, from the earliest possible age. So many non-profits and businesses have diversity initiatives that are reasonably effective. MCPS can too, but needs to be smart about it. Enfranchise kids early rather than waiting until double digits, when it’s much tougher to do.

I don't think anybody here has talked about lowering standards they talked about creating a level playing field so that all children could access these opportunities not just those wealthy enough to afford expensive prep classes.

Clearly you did not read the previous posts then.

I did and they only suggested leveling the playing field, but I understand that's confusing to someone who is privileged.

Please describe what level is to you. Is it just getting rid of all prep classes? No differentiation in school?

I'm the first PP up thread.. I think some think that "leveling the playing field" is looking at which zip code you live in and setting the threshold based on that because they think anyone from a certain zip code who scores above a certain point must have been tutored. But, that is not the case. There are many students from all walks of life who are "outliers" and need more challenging academics. It is not and should not be based on skin color or your zip code or your parent's income level.

Then there are those who think if you were lucky enough to be born to certain parents then you don't need another yet another "privilege" like the magnet program. You would do fine without it.

But the problem with this way of thinking is:

1. public schools shouldn't be picking and choosing "winners" and "losers". That's not the job of a public school. As I said, I have no issues with public schools paying for additional tutoring and even after school care, but it should not be setting criteria based on who your parents are. That's what racists did not that long ago.
2. the whole point of a magnet is to draw in higher income students to a lower performing area. If you do away with that, it will cause even more segregation, though it would certainly reduce transportation costs.
I have no problem with set aside seats for in bound students. I think that's a great way to admit more students from the less affluent areas.

3. If MCPS disregards the higher performing, high income families, such families will no longer want to be part of MCPS. The scores will start to drop quickly.

MCPS likes to tout AP exam participation rate and scores, but at the same time look down at those who prep to get those high scores. You can't have it both ways.

I bought my kid a cogat book from amazon. It was like $40 or something. That's the only prep my kid did. MCPS could certainly buy one for low income students who are interested. They could even offer weekend prep classes to low income students.

But setting the threshold by zip code and income level doesn't serve the mission of the magnet program, or at the end of the day, the students in the program. Life is tough, and when you constantly rely on a crutch, when reality hits, you won't be able to stand on your own. When that kid leaves HS, do you imagine that kid will continue to have MCPS level the playing field for that kid for life?

Very well articulated.

I think that #2 is an intended benefit of the program and not “the whole point.”

You simply cannot ignore the impact that zip code and cohort have on opportunities for highly able kids. I think it is easy to dismiss if you haven’t been in a school with almost zero activities or cohort. You don’t see it and just don’t understand. It is appalling what some kids go without in MCPS while at other schools they have a rich choice of clubs and in-school enrichment. It might not be quite as wonderful as the magnet experience, but for a child who is isolated in a school without any cohort or culture of academic achievement at all, it is a far more difficult experience.

Giving kids with less enrichment opportunities at their home school priority for MCPS enrichment at a magnet is not a crutch, it is fair. It absolutely does serve the mission of the magnet program and HELPS kids stand on their own as they grow up and head off to adult opportunities.

The main problem is that MCPS population has grown at a much faster rate than the enrichment opportunities it provides, so people feel they must fight over a scarce resource. I do agree with you, PP, that children in every school, no matter what their income or zip code, should have learning opportunities that take them to their full potential.

It is unacceptable that we allow MCPS to run schools "without any cohort or culture of academic achievement." Rather than plucking out one or two kids to "save" them via a magnet, we need MCPS to step up their expectations and rigor, along with rewards for academic achievement in ALL schools. All of the energy going to fights about magnets is misplaced.

That's the fault of MCPS, and kids in specific zip codes shouldn't have to deal with MCPS's failings. But it's true that if the curriculum was challenging in ALL the schools, people wouldn't be fighting for the scarce resource.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

THIS!

I have a kid at a regional CES and I would much rather have just kept her at our home school.

Why can’t MCPS offer enrichment and rigor at ALL schools. That would help all the kids. Versus this nonsense of trying to racially balance magnets.

Wouldn't that be dreaamy! What if they opened the classes to everyone even and just said if you can't keep up you'll get an F but all students are welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

PP here. I'm white. I admire cultures that prioritize education, and am similarly strict with my kids (one of whom has gone through the magnets). No rulers necessary but what a bizarre racist rant! My guess is you don't even know any of these incredibly hard-working Asian families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

THIS!

I have a kid at a regional CES and I would much rather have just kept her at our home school.

Why can’t MCPS offer enrichment and rigor at ALL schools. That would help all the kids. Versus this nonsense of trying to racially balance magnets.

Despite the "peer cohort" rationale for MS admissions, we were told our home MS wouldn't group them in peer cohorts even for the enriched courses. Because they didn't want higher-level courses to segregate white and asian students from other students in the school. Meanwhile we're stuck with magnets only because MCPS refuses to offer appropriate differentiation. Provide more support *early* to ES's with high FARMS populations, and offer rigorous course options at every single school for bright kids. Even out the support (what people are complaining about), and everyone wins.

[Anonymous]

Despite the "peer cohort" rationale for MS admissions, we were told our home MS wouldn't group them in peer cohorts even for the enriched courses. Because they didn't want higher-level courses to segregate white and asian students from other students in the school. Meanwhile we're stuck with magnets only because MCPS refuses to offer appropriate differentiation. Provide more support *early* to ES's with high FARMS populations, and offer rigorous course options at every single school for bright kids. Even out the support (what people are complaining about), and everyone wins.

I generally think the old system was terribly inequitable, and support the changes MCPS has put into place (universal testing, local norming) but also THIS. MCPS promised cohorting when they changed the MS magnet admissions, and then individual principals refused to follow through. If we could hold them to that promise, a lot of the drama around the magnets would fall away and they could genuinely be used to serve kids who would not have a cohort at their home school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Despite the "peer cohort" rationale for MS admissions, we were told our home MS wouldn't group them in peer cohorts even for the enriched courses. Because they didn't want higher-level courses to segregate white and asian students from other students in the school. Meanwhile we're stuck with magnets only because MCPS refuses to offer appropriate differentiation. Provide more support *early* to ES's with high FARMS populations, and offer rigorous course options at every single school for bright kids. Even out the support (what people are complaining about), and everyone wins.

I generally think the old system was terribly inequitable, and support the changes MCPS has put into place (universal testing, local norming) but also THIS. MCPS promised cohorting when they changed the MS magnet admissions, and then individual principals refused to follow through. If we could hold them to that promise, a lot of the drama around the magnets would fall away and they could genuinely be used to serve kids who would not have a cohort at their home school.

I know of one MS principal who had the advanced kids in one grade grouped with the less advanced kids in the next grade, and did away with the enriched math class. Advanced math kids went from loving math to absolutely hating it, of course. But the principal thought it was all fine.

For those of you who don’t think cohort matters, this cr@p is what some families have to put up with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

THIS!

I have a kid at a regional CES and I would much rather have just kept her at our home school.

Why can’t MCPS offer enrichment and rigor at ALL schools. That would help all the kids. Versus this nonsense of trying to racially balance magnets.

Wouldn't that be dreaamy! What if they opened the classes to everyone even and just said if you can't keep up you'll get an F but all students are welcome.

Please this is MCPS...they will lower the criteria to ensure everyone gets a B or above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

THIS!

I have a kid at a regional CES and I would much rather have just kept her at our home school.

Why can’t MCPS offer enrichment and rigor at ALL schools. That would help all the kids. Versus this nonsense of trying to racially balance magnets.

Wouldn't that be dreaamy! What if they opened the classes to everyone even and just said if you can't keep up you'll get an F but all students are welcome.

Please this is MCPS...they will lower the criteria to ensure everyone gets a B or above.

Only because these parents like to complain about everything. Last week it was math is too hard but this week it's math is too easy. I can't keep up anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many people here are correlating low test scores with parental income and applauding that MCPS has tried to figure out a way to control for that.

While I personally think that makes sense in general I'm sure many of you are following what is happening in NY where people are making up different things to justify how they want the gifted programs to look in terms of racial make up. In NY most of the students in the gifted programs are FARMS but they are Asian-American. Then they make up other reasons why the demographics are slanted.

You can't have it both ways. It's like administrators everywhere are making up whatever reason suits them to try to reduce the number of Asian-Americans in the magnet systems. This is really wrong.

This isn't exactly right. Most students in gifted programs in New York are elementary-aged, and up until this year were admitted based on a test administered at 4 years old. That process was absolutely dominated by UMC families from a very small handful of neighborhoods.

You are twisting facts. This thread is about high school magnets and for sure the top schools are overwhelmingly Asian American who are FARMS.

I had no idea. NY magnet schools are overwhelmingly Asian American who are FARMS. Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many people here are correlating low test scores with parental income and applauding that MCPS has tried to figure out a way to control for that.

While I personally think that makes sense in general I'm sure many of you are following what is happening in NY where people are making up different things to justify how they want the gifted programs to look in terms of racial make up. In NY most of the students in the gifted programs are FARMS but they are Asian-American. Then they make up other reasons why the demographics are slanted.

You can't have it both ways. It's like administrators everywhere are making up whatever reason suits them to try to reduce the number of Asian-Americans in the magnet systems. This is really wrong.

This isn't exactly right. Most students in gifted programs in New York are elementary-aged, and up until this year were admitted based on a test administered at 4 years old. That process was absolutely dominated by UMC families from a very small handful of neighborhoods.

You are twisting facts. This thread is about high school magnets and for sure the top schools are overwhelmingly Asian American who are FARMS.

I had no idea. NY magnet schools are overwhelmingly Asian American who are FARMS. Really?

I mean magnet high schools given that's what we are discussing here.