Magnet high schools

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Yes! Exactly! Why even spend more dollars on these prep programs. It just escalates the prep arms race. The real answer is to devise a system that marginalizes them. Sure, some areas will prep that's fine and the best peppers will make the cut but in areas where prep isn't common the most gifted will. This seems to be a better solution.

To me it sounds like people who want to cut in line.

Agree those advocating the advantage conferred by prep which their wealth affords them are exactly like people cutting in line.

LOL

‘Cutting in line’? Kind of what Montgomery County encourages with regards to immigrants. I have family who have been waiting decades to immigrate to the US. Seems that we support some people ‘cutting in line’, for sure. But maybe not the people you think.

[Anonymous]

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Yes, some of us worked hard to make sure we can provide for our kids. What's wrong with that? Isn't that your job as a parent? Your inability to provide is no one's fault except you.

Well, the problem is that a seat at a publicly funded magnet program is not a reward for good parenting, nor for your hard work. It is meant to provide opportunities for kids who would not have those opportunities at their home school (hence the 'magnet' part).

If you are a good parent, a good earner, good for you! But that's not what this is about.

Actually, publicly funded magnet programs were created NOT to provide academic opportunities, but to provide desirable programs that would lure people of other races to a basically segregated school. Why do you think the new downcounty IB program is at Kennedy?

[Anonymous]

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All good points.

My kid is a 4th grader at a Regional CES. His older sister was also in the same CES a few years ago.

This year, the caliber of kids is SO different. One-third of the class is in ‘remedial math’. How is that even possible? His older sister’s class was almost all Compacted Math, with just a handful of kids who were on-level. None of the kids were ‘remedial math. The kids post things on the Google discussion boards and some of the kids really need help with grammar and composition.

The racial make-up of the class has also changed dramatically.

The level of discussion and the level of ability is nowhere near what they used to be.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out this year. My guess is that the level of instruction will have to be adjusted to meet the kids where they are.

I wouldn't dispute this but this is mostly because this past year they used a random lottery combined with a low-bar. Few will agree this is a good process who aren't employed by MCPS.

That being said I felt that they did a great job using local norms. This had little impact on most CES programs because they're already local but seemed to help ensure that MS selection was more fair. Fruther, all the evidence showed that the classes that were selected using the cohort criteria were as strong as any in prior years.

The one thing I would dispute is this claim that 1/3 of the kids are in "remedial" math. I'd warrant a guess that 1/3 are in grade-level, but not remedial. For MCPS to take a kid off the grade-level track is quite a feat and I just cannot believe 1/3 of the CES class is on that track.

Many posters are unaware of the dramatic changes that MCPS implemented for selecting kids to be in compacted math this year. It is much, much less available than previous years.

This also has more to do with DL and the 4 day schoolweek brought on by the pandemic than changes to the selection process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have no problem with MCPS paying for tutoring and prep classes for under privileged children. I grew up lower income to uneducated immigrant parents who don't speak English.

But lowering the threshold doesn't serve the program, or the kids. Provide the support, but don't lower the expectations. All that does is provide a crutch for the kid. Life doesn't provide a crutch forever.

Yeah I agree with you and PP. Because there are more 99 percentile kids than spots in programs. Don’t lower standards. Provide opportunities to meet that standard, from the earliest possible age. So many non-profits and businesses have diversity initiatives that are reasonably effective. MCPS can too, but needs to be smart about it. Enfranchise kids early rather than waiting until double digits, when it’s much tougher to do.

I don't think anybody here has talked about lowering standards they talked about creating a level playing field so that all children could access these opportunities not just those wealthy enough to afford expensive prep classes.

Clearly you did not read the previous posts then.

I did and they only suggested leveling the playing field, but I understand that's confusing to someone who is privileged.

Please describe what level is to you. Is it just getting rid of all prep classes? No differentiation in school?

I'm the first PP up thread.. I think some think that "leveling the playing field" is looking at which zip code you live in and setting the threshold based on that because they think anyone from a certain zip code who scores above a certain point must have been tutored. But, that is not the case. There are many students from all walks of life who are "outliers" and need more challenging academics. It is not and should not be based on skin color or your zip code or your parent's income level.

Then there are those who think if you were lucky enough to be born to certain parents then you don't need another yet another "privilege" like the magnet program. You would do fine without it.

But the problem with this way of thinking is:

1. public schools shouldn't be picking and choosing "winners" and "losers". That's not the job of a public school. As I said, I have no issues with public schools paying for additional tutoring and even after school care, but it should not be setting criteria based on who your parents are. That's what racists did not that long ago.
2. the whole point of a magnet is to draw in higher income students to a lower performing area. If you do away with that, it will cause even more segregation, though it would certainly reduce transportation costs.
I have no problem with set aside seats for in bound students. I think that's a great way to admit more students from the less affluent areas.

3. If MCPS disregards the higher performing, high income families, such families will no longer want to be part of MCPS. The scores will start to drop quickly.

MCPS likes to tout AP exam participation rate and scores, but at the same time look down at those who prep to get those high scores. You can't have it both ways.

I bought my kid a cogat book from amazon. It was like $40 or something. That's the only prep my kid did. MCPS could certainly buy one for low income students who are interested. They could even offer weekend prep classes to low income students.

But setting the threshold by zip code and income level doesn't serve the mission of the magnet program, or at the end of the day, the students in the program. Life is tough, and when you constantly rely on a crutch, when reality hits, you won't be able to stand on your own. When that kid leaves HS, do you imagine that kid will continue to have MCPS level the playing field for that kid for life?

Very well articulated.

I think that #2 is an intended benefit of the program and not “the whole point.”

You simply cannot ignore the impact that zip code and cohort have on opportunities for highly able kids. I think it is easy to dismiss if you haven’t been in a school with almost zero activities or cohort. You don’t see it and just don’t understand. It is appalling what some kids go without in MCPS while at other schools they have a rich choice of clubs and in-school enrichment. It might not be quite as wonderful as the magnet experience, but for a child who is isolated in a school without any cohort or culture of academic achievement at all, it is a far more difficult experience.

Giving kids with less enrichment opportunities at their home school priority for MCPS enrichment at a magnet is not a crutch, it is fair. It absolutely does serve the mission of the magnet program and HELPS kids stand on their own as they grow up and head off to adult opportunities.

The main problem is that MCPS population has grown at a much faster rate than the enrichment opportunities it provides, so people feel they must fight over a scarce resource. I do agree with you, PP, that children in every school, no matter what their income or zip code, should have learning opportunities that take them to their full potential.

It is unacceptable that we allow MCPS to run schools "without any cohort or culture of academic achievement." Rather than plucking out one or two kids to "save" them via a magnet, we need MCPS to step up their expectations and rigor, along with rewards for academic achievement in ALL schools. All of the energy going to fights about magnets is misplaced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, some of us worked hard to make sure we can provide for our kids. What's wrong with that? Isn't that your job as a parent? Your inability to provide is no one's fault except you.

Well, the problem is that a seat at a publicly funded magnet program is not a reward for good parenting, nor for your hard work. It is meant to provide opportunities for kids who would not have those opportunities at their home school (hence the 'magnet' part).

If you are a good parent, a good earner, good for you! But that's not what this is about.

Actually, publicly funded magnet programs were created NOT to provide academic opportunities, but to provide desirable programs that would lure people of other races to a basically segregated school. Why do you think the new downcounty IB program is at Kennedy?

That was historically true, but mostly moot for those set up over 30 years ago. Most areas are different after 3-4 decades. Further, doesn't the state have some legal obligation to provide an appropriate education for children identified as gifted?

[Anonymous]

Many posters are unaware of the dramatic changes that MCPS implemented for selecting kids to be in compacted math this year. It is much, much less available than previous years.

That's true, and probably the right choice in general (not just due to pandemic). But MCPS has set a goal of getting (almost) every kid to Algebra I by 8th grade. You can't do that if you are pulling 1/3 of the kids off the grade-level math track. That's why I think PP amended their response. It's not "remedial" math, it's just grade level math that may be going slower.

It is interesting, though, that PP seems to be claiming that Compacted Math is no longer being taught separately from grade-level math. Are they all in the same room? Is that the new model?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, some of us worked hard to make sure we can provide for our kids. What's wrong with that? Isn't that your job as a parent? Your inability to provide is no one's fault except you.

Well, the problem is that a seat at a publicly funded magnet program is not a reward for good parenting, nor for your hard work. It is meant to provide opportunities for kids who would not have those opportunities at their home school (hence the 'magnet' part).

If you are a good parent, a good earner, good for you! But that's not what this is about.

Actually, publicly funded magnet programs were created NOT to provide academic opportunities, but to provide desirable programs that would lure people of other races to a basically segregated school. Why do you think the new downcounty IB program is at Kennedy?

That was historically true, but mostly moot for those set up over 30 years ago. Most areas are different after 3-4 decades. Further, doesn't the state have some legal obligation to provide an appropriate education for children identified as gifted?

No MD only requires that they test for giftedness. There is no requirement to provide special programming. State testing also ids many MCPS children as gifted. At some elementary schools it is almost 100%...so the definition of gifted is a bit suspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Many posters are unaware of the dramatic changes that MCPS implemented for selecting kids to be in compacted math this year. It is much, much less available than previous years.

That's true, and probably the right choice in general (not just due to pandemic). But MCPS has set a goal of getting (almost) every kid to Algebra I by 8th grade. You can't do that if you are pulling 1/3 of the kids off the grade-level math track. That's why I think PP amended their response. It's not "remedial" math, it's just grade level math that may be going slower.

It is interesting, though, that PP seems to be claiming that Compacted Math is no longer being taught separately from grade-level math. Are they all in the same room? Is that the new model?

They had this goal for my son's year too (he is a senior in college now). They just pretty much put everyone in Algebra in 8th and hoped. By Oct/Nov they realized that it was just not going to work and moved kids out of algebra who needed more support. I guess they are hoping harder this time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

Exactly. Implement rigor at the home schools. Top kids get into the *meaningfully* enriched classes at every school. Eliminate the magnets. Everyone wins.

THIS!

I have a kid at a regional CES and I would much rather have just kept her at our home school.

Why can’t MCPS offer enrichment and rigor at ALL schools. That would help all the kids. Versus this nonsense of trying to racially balance magnets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

That's not true at all. There are way more kids capable of doing these programs than there are seats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A coworker told me that no one gets in without prep. Well my kid did. From his circle of Blair friends, there was one child who was prepped. While there are families who prep, I also think people use that idea to justify why their kid did not get in. In reality it is like very competitive colleges. Lots of very talented kids just don't get in.

I don't think it is appropriate to use the cohort method for HS students since in HS there are many levels of classes available. In middle school there is much less differentiation (or none).

Maybe 25%-30% manage without prep but the majority are in classes from early on.

Several Asian cultures (Chinese, Indian) are heavily focused on education, particularly STEM. Kids have tutors and are often working 2-3 years ahead in math. Of course that's reflected in the test scores. Not necessarily a bad thing. Those families devote lots of resources to education and sometimes music lessons from a young age, and those kids do very well as a result. Why is it their problem so many white families put their resources toward athletics instead? Support starts at home.

Let me guess, you're an Asian (Chinese, Indian) yourself, amirite?

Here's the answer to your question. We, white families, don't think it is smart or beneficial to stand over our kids' shoulders with a ruler threatening to hit each time said kid turns his/hers gaze away from that Khan Academy channel. Let's be honest here, the representatives of "Asian cultures" who made it here are strivers and they don't give a crap that their children are not interested in algebra and/or piano. So this is not 'support', this is coercion often bordering on abuse.

Wow. Just, wow. Racist, much?

It’s okay to be racist towards Asians though, amirite?

No, I’m not ‘an Asian’, but thanks for playing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please- if MC offered vouchers to these cram classes very few would take advantage of the opportunities.

That sounds like a terrible solution. A simpler option might be to simply apply things like local norms.

Uh, how about offering a real rigorous curriculum and honest differentiation in all schools? Then you won't need to fudge things with "local norms."

That's not true at all. There are way more kids capable of doing these programs than there are seats.

That’s the point. Offer an ‘enriched’ fourth and fifth grade class at each and every elementary school. The classes will fill. Find high performing kids at lower-performing schools and provide them with support and engagement at their home school.