2022 Olympics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is Trusova’s complaint?

That five landed quads were not enough to win a gold medal.

She reminds me a lot of Aliya Mustafina the gymnast. Moody, emotional. PITA for all.

Or Khorkina

I'm not sure I can agree that anyone can hold a candle to Khorkina.

I'm still salty about that vault in 2000. She was robbed.

Agreed. The whole of the 2000 gymnastics event is still such a disaster. Soup to nuts.

absolute disaster of a competition. And then the gold medalist was stripped of her medal for cold medicine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:she wasn't the all around olympic champion, so it's a bit misleading

?

khorkina

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is Trusova’s complaint?

That five landed quads were not enough to win a gold medal.

She reminds me a lot of Aliya Mustafina the gymnast. Moody, emotional. PITA for all.

Or Khorkina

I'm not sure I can agree that anyone can hold a candle to Khorkina.

I'm still salty about that vault in 2000. She was robbed.

Agreed. The whole of the 2000 gymnastics event is still such a disaster. Soup to nuts.

absolute disaster of a competition. And then the gold medalist was stripped of her medal for cold medicine

Talk about your teenage victim. Andrea Raducan can still make me weep.

Good piece here https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/15/sports/olympics/andreea-raducan-doping.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:she wasn't the all around olympic champion, so it's a bit misleading

?

khorkina

Well, in Sydney she very well might have if the vault hadn't been screwed up.

[Anonymous]

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/2022/02/18/what-does-gold-mean-an/

Really sweet story about Nathan Chen’s mom and the sacrifices she made for all her kids. She used to work multiple jobs and would sleep in her car.

Now her kids include a gold medalist and a biotech company founder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s disturbing is they all the Russians look prepubescent in a way that the gymnasts do not, and certainly salami to does not. It looks like starvation. It feels like we are watching the hunger games, these kids have been thrown to the wolves for our entertainment.

Eh, it depends on the year. Some very young ones, some not.

from last year:
https://themedalcount.com/2021/03/12/2021-russia-a-team-hungary-for-success/

While watching the qualification round of the 2021 Russian Championships, what I found particularly noticeable was how young their women’s artistic gymnastics (WAG) program has now become. Gymnasts born in either 2004 or 2005 have dominated the qualification round. Had medals been awarded for qualification scores, this age group would have taken 10 of 15 individual medals (66%).

But with the Russian gymnastics team, I don't get the impression that there is yet another group of younger gymnasts ready to move up. Members from the Olympic team from last summer are likely to form their core for the next cycle (barring injury of course). Whereas the skaters are likely to be completely different 4 years from now, heck maybe even next year.

Does Mishin coach any other female skaters besides Liza Tuk? She is the rare example of a Russian skater who is somehow hanging in there into her 20s- I really hoped she would make the team this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I also think Russia now is not as different from the Soviet era as you'd like to hope. The level of corruption and cronyism is still astronomically high, so winning a high profile Olympic medal still has enormous benefit to a skater and her family, who may be set up within that system. Or maybe not. The system is abusive and discards people who are not deemed useful. But the pressure to "be useful" is almost as intense now as it was in the 80s, and a talented young child and her family could be persuaded to participate in an abusive training program to win gold "for love of country" more easily than they might be in the US. Also, unlike in the US, there is still far more state sponsorship of young athletes in Russia, with many scholarships and public sponsorships available to those who have a demonstrated ability. It is also true for young dancers through the Bolshoi and other artistic programs. Russia may no longer be a communist country, but they have not dropped many of their ideals about making Russian arts and culture dominant. That still extends to athletes, as evidenced by the Sochi Olympics, the doping scandal, and now this debacle.

Russia has changed very little in the last 30 years.

You've got it quite wrong. Olympic medalists now have access to opportunities that were simply not there in the USSR times - endorsement contracts and TV shows come to mind. In my view, it is quite fair that an athlete who invested a tremendous amount of energy and time into getting a medal gets a reward from the state. You are also wrong that children are pressured to enter these programs. Skating is tremendously popular and whatever you think of Eteri and her training methods, the line to her facility is around the block and she does not force anyone to stay as she has enough skaters to keep her busy. If Kamila wanted to leave skating tomorrow, no one would keep her in. Children stay in skating because they are driven from within; and it also helps when they look at champions like Zagitova, Pluschenko, Slutskaya or Yagudin, and see prosperity and popularity at the end of the line.

State sponsorship of athletes and artists is a good thing. Accessibility of high arts and culture is a good thing. These things cannot pay for themselves, and it is not fair that they should only be available to the rich, or to families with a stay at home parent.

You misread my statement. We are in agreement but with slightly different perspectives.

Of course there is tremendous demand for training programs like Eteri, because people see the benefit in being a top ranked skater and winning Olympic medals. That doesn't mean Eteris training system, and the system in general, is not abusive -- it creates the opportunity for abuse because families that don't comply with Eteri's methods can be booted for the next willing skater any time. So while children enter these programs willingly, that does not mean they are not abused and exploited once in them. And while Valieva could leave tomorrow and be replaced, look at what it would cost her -- years of her life and energy, on mastery of a sport she may never be able to compete in at a high level again.

I agree state sponsorship of arts and culture is a good thing and wish the US did more of it, I was just explaining to the PP how the economics are very different in Russia. In the US, Olympic-level skating really is only available to wealthy families -- it is not only self-funded by families with very few scholarships available, but the competition circuit itself is a for-profit business and will milk ambitious children and their parents for every possible dime. Given this, it might be hard for Americans to understand why a Russian family would "put up with" a coach like Eteri, becaue they may be assuming that these families are paying through the nose for Eteri's services. But I have to assume most of Eteri's funding comes from the state or from private interests. She will choose the most promising skaters based purely on talent and drive and not on their family's ability to pay. And this is likely to feel like a great deal to most Russian families, who will have most of their child's training paid for by others, as well as tutors and other resources to support her training.

I was simply explaining the difference between the US and Russian approaches to a PP who was confused by the motivations of these families in a system where the economics are so different than in the US.

Russia's approach to coaching young athletes is brutal compared to what most people are familiar with in the U.S. You are absolutely correct: there is always another skater waiting to take the place of someone who doesn't want to deal with the pressure and abuse of the training "system". The coaches clearly don't see anything problematic with their behavior.

I would recommend the 2017 documentary "Over The Limit" (not sure if anyone has in previous posts). It follows the eventual 2016 gold medalist in rhythmic gymnastics, Margarita Mamun. Her individual coach would set most parents here on edge, but she has nothing on Irina Viner who is the Head Coach of Russia's rhythmic gymnastics. She is absolutely atrocious! Really, one of the most awful displays of human behavior I've ever seen. But she's married to one of Russia's richest men. No poor young talent selected to train at the highest level is going to do anything other than exactly what they're told to do. It really is tragic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Russia's approach to coaching young athletes is brutal compared to what most people are familiar with in the U.S. You are absolutely correct: there is always another skater waiting to take the place of someone who doesn't want to deal with the pressure and abuse of the training "system". The coaches clearly don't see anything problematic with their behavior.

I would recommend the 2017 documentary "Over The Limit" (not sure if anyone has in previous posts). It follows the eventual 2016 gold medalist in rhythmic gymnastics, Margarita Mamun. Her individual coach would set most parents here on edge, but she has nothing on Irina Viner who is the Head Coach of Russia's rhythmic gymnastics. She is absolutely atrocious! Really, one of the most awful displays of human behavior I've ever seen. But she's married to one of Russia's richest men. No poor young talent selected to train at the highest level is going to do anything other than exactly what they're told to do. It really is tragic.

Viner comes across as brutal in this film, that's true. What's surprising is that most of her alumni gymnasts, to a woman, are incredibly devoted to her even in adulthood. I mean say what you like about her methods, they are certainly appalling. Yet, the kids love her. She was asked, post the movie, why she never yells or berates Yana Kudryavtseva, Rita's training partner. She said, simply, Yana didn't ever need me to yell at her. She did her job. Rita was the one who was an artiste, not a competitor, and she needed regular kicks in the ass to show her greatness. Yana, in the meantime, always had an iron will to win, and therefore required zero kicks.

It's true that Viner has unfettered access to Gazprom money. But, look at it from this point of view: instead of spending it on boats and diamonds like other oligarch wives, she took that money and built a world-class training facility. I mean it's not like she has to work, you know.

Viner reminds me of Tatiana Tarasova, who is also very tough but beloved as a mother figure. Who knows. It's a mystery to me but I'm not an olympic athlete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Russia's approach to coaching young athletes is brutal compared to what most people are familiar with in the U.S. You are absolutely correct: there is always another skater waiting to take the place of someone who doesn't want to deal with the pressure and abuse of the training "system". The coaches clearly don't see anything problematic with their behavior.

I would recommend the 2017 documentary "Over The Limit" (not sure if anyone has in previous posts). It follows the eventual 2016 gold medalist in rhythmic gymnastics, Margarita Mamun. Her individual coach would set most parents here on edge, but she has nothing on Irina Viner who is the Head Coach of Russia's rhythmic gymnastics. She is absolutely atrocious! Really, one of the most awful displays of human behavior I've ever seen. But she's married to one of Russia's richest men. No poor young talent selected to train at the highest level is going to do anything other than exactly what they're told to do. It really is tragic.

Viner comes across as brutal in this film, that's true. What's surprising is that most of her alumni gymnasts, to a woman, are incredibly devoted to her even in adulthood. I mean say what you like about her methods, they are certainly appalling. Yet, the kids love her. She was asked, post the movie, why she never yells or berates Yana Kudryavtseva, Rita's training partner. She said, simply, Yana didn't ever need me to yell at her. She did her job. Rita was the one who was an artiste, not a competitor, and she needed regular kicks in the ass to show her greatness. Yana, in the meantime, always had an iron will to win, and therefore required zero kicks.

It's true that Viner has unfettered access to Gazprom money. But, look at it from this point of view: instead of spending it on boats and diamonds like other oligarch wives, she took that money and built a world-class training facility. I mean it's not like she has to work, you know.

Viner reminds me of Tatiana Tarasova, who is also very tough but beloved as a mother figure. Who knows. It's a mystery to me but I'm not an olympic athlete.

PP here. I certainly agree with the statement in bold. Unless you're on that path, you probably can't fathom what you'd be willing to put up with to reach your ultimate goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course there is tremendous demand for training programs like Eteri, because people see the benefit in being a top ranked skater and winning Olympic medals. That doesn't mean Eteris training system, and the system in general, is not abusive -- it creates the opportunity for abuse because families that don't comply with Eteri's methods can be booted for the next willing skater any time. So while children enter these programs willingly, that does not mean they are not abused and exploited once in them. And while Valieva could leave tomorrow and be replaced, look at what it would cost her -- years of her life and energy, on mastery of a sport she may never be able to compete in at a high level again.

You can look at it this way or you can take a position that Eteri is one of the coaches (not THE coach) who offers a particular method of training, and those who don't like it are free to leave, as some did. I mean no one has to train with her, there are other coaches out there. Surprisingly, a few stars who left Tutberidze's camp, have returned because grass was not greener.

Sambo-70 has become the only path to the Olympic Team. Although I do wonder what went down with the Plushenko defection. I think Evgenia would have stayed with Brian Orser had the pandemic not happened, but she has way too many injuries to ever be competitive again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s disturbing is they all the Russians look prepubescent in a way that the gymnasts do not, and certainly salami to does not. It looks like starvation. It feels like we are watching the hunger games, these kids have been thrown to the wolves for our entertainment.

Eh, it depends on the year. Some very young ones, some not.

from last year:
https://themedalcount.com/2021/03/12/2021-russia-a-team-hungary-for-success/

While watching the qualification round of the 2021 Russian Championships, what I found particularly noticeable was how young their women’s artistic gymnastics (WAG) program has now become. Gymnasts born in either 2004 or 2005 have dominated the qualification round. Had medals been awarded for qualification scores, this age group would have taken 10 of 15 individual medals (66%).

But with the Russian gymnastics team, I don't get the impression that there is yet another group of younger gymnasts ready to move up. Members from the Olympic team from last summer are likely to form their core for the next cycle (barring injury of course). Whereas the skaters are likely to be completely different 4 years from now, heck maybe even next year.

Does Mishin coach any other female skaters besides Liza Tuk? She is the rare example of a Russian skater who is somehow hanging in there into her 20s- I really hoped she would make the team this year.

Mishin has famously said in the past that he prefers coaching men because they are sportier and more talented. That said, Liza has done very well under him. I really wish she had managed to make this olympic team. Mishin did coach Sofia Samodurova, who had a surprising, but deserved win at the European Championships in 2019.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Russia's approach to coaching young athletes is brutal compared to what most people are familiar with in the U.S. You are absolutely correct: there is always another skater waiting to take the place of someone who doesn't want to deal with the pressure and abuse of the training "system". The coaches clearly don't see anything problematic with their behavior.

I would recommend the 2017 documentary "Over The Limit" (not sure if anyone has in previous posts). It follows the eventual 2016 gold medalist in rhythmic gymnastics, Margarita Mamun. Her individual coach would set most parents here on edge, but she has nothing on Irina Viner who is the Head Coach of Russia's rhythmic gymnastics. She is absolutely atrocious! Really, one of the most awful displays of human behavior I've ever seen. But she's married to one of Russia's richest men. No poor young talent selected to train at the highest level is going to do anything other than exactly what they're told to do. It really is tragic.

Viner comes across as brutal in this film, that's true. What's surprising is that most of her alumni gymnasts, to a woman, are incredibly devoted to her even in adulthood. I mean say what you like about her methods, they are certainly appalling. Yet, the kids love her. She was asked, post the movie, why she never yells or berates Yana Kudryavtseva, Rita's training partner. She said, simply, Yana didn't ever need me to yell at her. She did her job. Rita was the one who was an artiste, not a competitor, and she needed regular kicks in the ass to show her greatness. Yana, in the meantime, always had an iron will to win, and therefore required zero kicks.

It's true that Viner has unfettered access to Gazprom money. But, look at it from this point of view: instead of spending it on boats and diamonds like other oligarch wives, she took that money and built a world-class training facility. I mean it's not like she has to work, you know.

Viner reminds me of Tatiana Tarasova, who is also very tough but beloved as a mother figure. Who knows. It's a mystery to me but I'm not an olympic athlete.

I don't think this is an uncommon phenomenon. I am sure there is a psychological label for it other than Stockholm Syndrome, but it's an apt comparison. I wasn't involved in an elite sport but was in our high school marching band, which, in our area, was a big deal, very competitive, etc. Our director was an absolute tyrant. Screaming, cursing, throwing things at us. Made you run laps if you were late.

We went on a trip once where the plane I was on (we were on three different planes) was seriously delayed and then we got lost getting to the hotel. We had not eaten for like 8 hours and tried to grab some pizza on the way to practice - in the pitch dark and cold. He flew into a rage, would not listen to any explanation, kept us out there for two hours and then we were sent to go to bed with no dinner. Yeah, it's not like being physically pushed to your limit day after day for years, but my point is that we all could have quit at any time, probably told our parents what was going on, but WE ALL STAYED. We wanted to be the best and were willing to put up with whatever it took to do that.

That director is dead now, but I am still in touch with my bandmates, and to a person, they talk about how much they loved him and how lucky they felt to be in the band.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your story, PP. The question is - beyond the screaming and throwing things - did you feel like the director was moving you in the right direction toward being the best? Was he guiding you? Or was he just there?

[Anonymous]

Sambo-70 sounds like a fun nightclub. Except it isn't lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sambo-70 sounds like a fun nightclub. Except it isn't lol

Could be for the right masochist.