Anyone with experience with un-charming narcissist family member?

[Anonymous]

It's taken me years, but I'm coming around to the idea that a sibling-in-law is a narcissist.

I think what threw me off was that I always understood narcissists to be people with amazing charm and driven type-A types who were excellent at snowing people, and this person is... not.

However, as I done a bit of reading lately, I've learned more about "vulnerable narcissists" and "covert narcissists" and when I read through the full list of traits, things like
Inflated sense of entitlement and superiority
Insatiable desire for attention and approval
Blaming others and deflecting to escape responsibility
No empathy for others
Feeling threatened by everything and everyone
Inability to understand logic and reasoning (because they only consider things through their own personal feelings)
Bouts of anxiety, which leads them to lash out and accuse others of being mentally unwell
Poor communication and team coordination skills

And yep, that absolutely describes this person. This person has never been particularly successful socially or career-wise, and person had some early childhood health issues which are now all resolved, but I think that stuff led to an overall attitude of feeling sorry for and somewhat protective of this person, and not really adding all of the above-mentioned traits up and considering narcassism.

It seems to be coming to a head now, however, with different family members having some very unpleasant encounters recently.

Anyway, wondering if anyone has any experience with this type of narcissist, and any advice on how to proceed?

[Anonymous]

Disengage and go LC or NC. This is the only way to not be unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Also take a look at Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). I mistook a BPD for an NPD, but she's really a BPD with a lot of narcissistic behavior. They can be similar.

The idea of the narcissist as a "winner" (like Trump, for example) doesn't fit every NPD. They're often pretty ordinary, and you wouldn't know that they think they're so special unless you really get to know them. Sometimes they are presiding over a very small sphere, such as their family. And others don't know how bad they are, because they only hurt the people closest to them.

To differentiate a BPD from and NPD, sometimes looking for pomposity will be a clue - the NPDs are more pompous. Also NPDs are crazily vindictive.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to PPs. I will look into BPD. We are already low contact, and I think we are close to going no contact. The problem person has a child, who I worry is an innocent victim, but I'm also not sure realistically what we can do to help/ intervene.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to PPs. I will look into BPD. We are already low contact, and I think we are close to going no contact. The problem person has a child, who I worry is an innocent victim, but I'm also not sure realistically what we can do to help/ intervene.

So this is your siblings's spouse? Or your spouse's sibling? How is the spouse of this problem-person doing? You maybe stay in enough contact that the child can count on you as a safe/supportive person. If the kid has other interested people in his life, he'll likely be OK. It's a matter of how toxic/abusive this person is, and that can be a wide range.

I think the idea that most narcissists are charming is a mostly a myth, and it came about because of the accounts of former romantic partners, who say, "he was so charming in the beginning," because that's when the narcissist is reeling them in, using everything they learn about the person to appear like the perfect match. For most people who are not potential romantic partners, the narcissist is not charming and even off-putting.

[Anonymous]

This could be autism spectrum. But if she’s also a bully and putting people down it could be narcissism as well.
There are kind asd and unkind asd narcs.

[Anonymous]

My brother 3 years younger than me.

Cut him off. He ruined his marriage and his only child. He preys on sick people. It's horrible.

He is a loser and I am much happier and settled since I cut him and my mother out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to PPs. I will look into BPD. We are already low contact, and I think we are close to going no contact. The problem person has a child, who I worry is an innocent victim, but I'm also not sure realistically what we can do to help/ intervene.

So this is your siblings's spouse? Or your spouse's sibling? How is the spouse of this problem-person doing? You maybe stay in enough contact that the child can count on you as a safe/supportive person. If the kid has other interested people in his life, he'll likely be OK. It's a matter of how toxic/abusive this person is, and that can be a wide range.

I think the idea that most narcissists are charming is a mostly a myth, and it came about because of the accounts of former romantic partners, who say, "he was so charming in the beginning," because that's when the narcissist is reeling them in, using everything they learn about the person to appear like the perfect match. For most people who are not potential romantic partners, the narcissist is not charming and even off-putting.

Problem person is my DH's sibling. Spouse of problem person is also very strange. My understanding is the spouse takes meds for OCD, but frankly it doesn't seem to help much. Apparently people who are NPD (and/or maybe BPD, to PP's point) often end up with spouses who exhibit codependency. That seems to be the case here (Again, I realize this is all my speculation based on observation, but neither of these people is actually going to engage in serious therapy or seek a diagnosis, so that's all I've got.)

So, that leaves the kid of these two people in not a great situation. However, I think the rest of my DH's family (who I love and think are good people) has made some missteps in trying to voice concerns about child's well-being, and the person who I suspect of NPD (BPD) has lashed out, said that the topic of their parenting is permanently closed, and codependent spouse has backed them up.

The situation feels pretty hopeless, and if it wasn't for the kid I would have zero problem going no contact. However, I'm not even sure if trying to maintain contact at this point would actually make a difference for the kid, (who is 8, btw.) I know that any contact would definitely be a miserable experience for my nuclear family.
DH has no interest/ desire to maintain relationship with problem person. Only reason we are even considering is if there's any way us doing so could help the kid.

Guess I should also add the problem person is not local. They're halfway across the country, do it's not like we can offer to pick up kid for a weekend at our house.

Thanks to people who have already chimed in. Appreciate any others thoughts/ suggestions.

[Anonymous]

I don't even know how to advise, and I was brought up with such people. Maybe a family member closer can try to stay in contact with the kid. It is not as if the kid is likely going to be like "help me, I am abused!" Whether it's emotional or physical abuse. But it will help kid if he knows other adults are there for him. Also keeps parents less abusive, if relatives are keeping tabs. Isolation makes for worse scenarios I think. But you are far away. And it's hard to keep contact with a kid if his parents hate you. So it would require some appeasing of the parents.

[Anonymous]

My BIL and my former boss.

I had to go to therapy for the boss because being in a subordinate position to them meant that a bought completely into their system of vulnerability and manipulation. It was like brain washing. I have not seen them in almost 6 years and I still sometimes become fearful they are displeased with me. It’s horrible.

However, in getting treatment I also discovered my BIL has vulnerable narcissist traits as well and it’s almost helpful. Because he is not in a position of authority over me. So I basically get constant practice with detaching from him when he dies this, which in a weird way helps me mentally with recovering from the abuse I experienced from my boss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't even know how to advise, and I was brought up with such people. Maybe a family member closer can try to stay in contact with the kid. It is not as if the kid is likely going to be like "help me, I am abused!" Whether it's emotional or physical abuse. But it will help kid if he knows other adults are there for him. Also keeps parents less abusive, if relatives are keeping tabs. Isolation makes for worse scenarios I think. But you are far away. And it's hard to keep contact with a kid if his parents hate you. So it would require some appeasing of the parents.

Just wanted to add - not suggesting it is your place to appease the parents/stay in touch. Probably impossible and futile. But does the problem-person respect the kid's grandparents? If so, they are the ones who can keep an eye and not become alienated. You really can't do anything. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't even know how to advise, and I was brought up with such people. Maybe a family member closer can try to stay in contact with the kid. It is not as if the kid is likely going to be like "help me, I am abused!" Whether it's emotional or physical abuse. But it will help kid if he knows other adults are there for him. Also keeps parents less abusive, if relatives are keeping tabs. Isolation makes for worse scenarios I think. But you are far away. And it's hard to keep contact with a kid if his parents hate you. So it would require some appeasing of the parents.

Just wanted to add - not suggesting it is your place to appease the parents/stay in touch. Probably impossible and futile. But does the problem-person respect the kid's grandparents? If so, they are the ones who can keep an eye and not become alienated. You really can't do anything. Sorry.

OP here. Thanks again for responding. The grandparents of the kid are parents of my DH and his 2 siblings, one of whom is the problem person. My MIL and DIL are genuinely nice, good people who seem to have done a great job as parents because DH and one of his siblings turned out great. Healthy people who are good parents. It's just this other sibling,

Unfortunately, I think DH's parents never really understood how to manage this one problem person. Always seem to have made allowances/ excuses for this person. It feels like anytime they've tried to point out some basic issue with problem person's parenting, the problem person reacts in what I now understand to be typical NPD (BPD) fashion.

The problem person (and spouse) are really not interested in caring for this kid. He's left at home alone, the house is truly filthy (which has undoubtedly exacerbated kid's asthma). He has no toys except tablet and laptop in his room, which he uses to watch You Tube videos non-stop. I doubt these parents are savvy enough to put blockers on web browsing, so who knows what he's seeing, since he has no enforced bedtime.

DH's parents also don't live in same town as problem person, but are at least somewhat geographically closer, and have had more visits. However, because I think they are somewhat in denial about the severity of their problem child's psychological issues, they have recently tried to talk to problem person about their concerns, and it seems to have backfired. Now I think problem person will limit access to their home (so people won't see how bad it is) and they've announced that there will be no more conversations about their parenting.

So now we have a mess. Theoretically all of us are supposed to be getting at Christmas. I feel it's a bit hopeless for us to continue the charade of one big happy family, but I guess my in laws are still holding out hope.

Really appreciate all the insight folks have already provided. Guess I'm trying to figure out where we land on this. I'm reminded of the Serenity Prayer (which I think is helpful even if not religious).
Serenity to accept things I cannot change
Courage to change things I ca
Wisdom to know difference.

Wisdom, please! Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Now that you all know that she will lash out if given any criticism, maybe quit the criticism so she doesn't cut you all off and you won't get to see the kid. You could get together with the grandparents and talk about how to deal with these ILs in a consistent, helpful, non-critical way that won't make them alienated from you.

The kid is left alone, has unlimited screen time, is in a house too dirty for his asthma -- and that all sounds bad, but not so bad that you'd have the law intervene. If, for example, the parents were divorcing and one parent brought up those issues, the offending parent would have opportunities to remedy any issue like that, and it would not affect custody in the slightest. Unfortunately, it just doesn't rise to the level that you can do anything about it, the parents can do anything they want short of severe abuse, and apparently giving them constructive criticism is going to backfire. So, yeah, I think you need serenity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's taken me years, but I'm coming around to the idea that a sibling-in-law is a narcissist.

I think what threw me off was that I always understood narcissists to be people with amazing charm and driven type-A types who were excellent at snowing people, and this person is... not.

However, as I done a bit of reading lately, I've learned more about "vulnerable narcissists" and "covert narcissists" and when I read through the full list of traits, things like
Inflated sense of entitlement and superiority
Insatiable desire for attention and approval
Blaming others and deflecting to escape responsibility
No empathy for others
Feeling threatened by everything and everyone
Inability to understand logic and reasoning (because they only consider things through their own personal feelings)
Bouts of anxiety, which leads them to lash out and accuse others of being mentally unwell
Poor communication and team coordination skills

And yep, that absolutely describes this person. This person has never been particularly successful socially or career-wise, and person had some early childhood health issues which are now all resolved, but I think that stuff led to an overall attitude of feeling sorry for and somewhat protective of this person, and not really adding all of the above-mentioned traits up and considering narcassism.

It seems to be coming to a head now, however, with different family members having some very unpleasant encounters recently.

Anyway, wondering if anyone has any experience with this type of narcissist, and any advice on how to proceed?

Yes, my SIL. We are in our 60s and I am still exhausted by her. What works? Gray Rock. Do.not.give.her.any.fuel.

Having said that, it's not been easy.
Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Yes. Cut them out. It came to a head recently for us when it became clear that this person will never acknowledge/understand that they have ever done anything wrong.