Dog training in crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

OP, I responded in this thread as a proponent of balanced training, which you are correctly noting is old-fashioned and considered outdated and abusive. Never mind the risk of injury to people from positive only training, which you described in your post (getting dragged around which is dangerous and can cause direct or indirect injury) as well as to the potential for harm to the dog, other people and other dogs.

On the parenting forum, the post about the 6 year old brother who misbehaves at bedtime seems parallel - the suggestions are sticker chart or better planning by mom. Positive only training in action. Telling him No! is old-fashioned and outdated and abusive.

Op I never said I was "positive only" Only that I do not use pain to teach my dog. If you understood your dog than you wouldn't either. Let me give you an example. My dog wants to jump and say hi. We turn away and don't pet him until all four paws are on the ground. He learns that to get pets he has to be calm and have his feet on the ground. I don't have to knee him or yell NO! Also, the difference between humans ( even kids) is that they speak your language so you can explain the sticker chart and your rules. Dogs don't and they communicate an entirely different way! Guess what they are different!

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Four-Quadrants-of-Dog-Training

It is dangerous for my friend1 The answer is clear. You can't do everything! Stop walking the dog. After all if a man tried to breastfeed because he wanted to that would be silly right? Or if I had a small dog and wanted him to be a sled dog...ain't going to happen!

But yes, continue on with your training and meanwhile my dog and I have an amazing relationship build on love and trust! He does things for me because he wants to!

OP, I think you should look into veganism. I think the philosophy would appeal to you.

Op I think you are in the wrong thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP, We tried the Zak George approach with our sweet natured, but extremely strong large breed dog. He can be walking beautifully along side me, but if there's something he wants to sniff or sees a squirrel, all bets are off and he pulls. I've been pulled down 3 times and have had cuts/bruises. A family member ended up in the ER with a broken arm.

We're not the only ones with stories like this with this breed. We started working with a trainer 1:1 and yes, the prong collar is helping tremendously with curbing the pulling.

It's a safety issue. We love our dog and want to keep him, but we also can't be injured in the process. So, OP, with all due respect, eff off.

Op here There is nothing respectful about telling someone to F off. If you were very confident that you were doing the right thing you wouldn't get so angry. Did you even read the article? The one dog almost lost their eye because of a prong collar. So how would you feel if you really hurt your dog?

There are other ways but, you want the quick result and I feel sorry for your poor dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We use a prong collar with rubber tips. It’s only on for walks and has a quicl release jic. Ours is a larger breed puppy and she’s much safer with this than the harness which did nothing to slow her down. I’d much rather the occasional easily corrected pinch than both of us being pulled into traffic. We DO use positive reinforcement as well and training. Both are needed with some dogs. When she’s older we can go back to the martingale.

Op here Please. Do you think it is ok to "occasionally" hit your kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aversive methods work, and you shouldn't confuse them with inflicting pain. I know this is VERY HARD for most posters to understand.

I use a prong collar on my dog. I've tried e-collars as well, but his huge neck ruff defeats the circuitry. He's a very active sled dog, and when he pulls, he can pull your arm off.

But he's not stupid. When he sees someone reaching for his regular collar, he will pull to his heart's content, and trigger medical bills for the human. When he sees someone reaching for the prongs, he's going to measure his lunges and stride accurately so as never to cause himself pain. The prongs are blunt, his ruff is incredibly thick, so he still pulls! But not to the point of the human needing physical therapy for months.

There will always be circumstances where prong and other methods are necessary. I say this as someone who has fostered and trained rescued dogs for years and years. I've never had to use aversive methods on ANY OF THEM. But my own dog was born with physical and mental characteristics that defeat standard methods.

Regarding "professional" trainers: most trainers in my area are froufrou people who can't handle anything more than moderate issues. Their clients are usually wealthy families who can't be bothered to train for bathroom and bite inhibition - the basics of puppy education! But show them a really difficult dog (my dog isn't the only one I know who has a real problem), and they can't deal. The tiny minority of trainers who aren't froufrou have connections to police dog training and it's e-collar all the way. Which doesn't work on my dog, as described above.

So you can sit back down, OP. You know nothing.

op here. I have every right to express my opinion. Again if you were so confident than you wouldn't tell me to shut up. Which I am never going to do. These methods are never necessary. NEVER

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

OP, I responded in this thread as a proponent of balanced training, which you are correctly noting is old-fashioned and considered outdated and abusive. Never mind the risk of injury to people from positive only training, which you described in your post (getting dragged around which is dangerous and can cause direct or indirect injury) as well as to the potential for harm to the dog, other people and other dogs.

On the parenting forum, the post about the 6 year old brother who misbehaves at bedtime seems parallel - the suggestions are sticker chart or better planning by mom. Positive only training in action. Telling him No! is old-fashioned and outdated and abusive.

Op I never said I was "positive only" Only that I do not use pain to teach my dog. If you understood your dog than you wouldn't either. Let me give you an example. My dog wants to jump and say hi. We turn away and don't pet him until all four paws are on the ground. He learns that to get pets he has to be calm and have his feet on the ground. I don't have to knee him or yell NO! Also, the difference between humans ( even kids) is that they speak your language so you can explain the sticker chart and your rules. Dogs don't and they communicate an entirely different way! Guess what they are different!

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Four-Quadrants-of-Dog-Training

It is dangerous for my friend1 The answer is clear. You can't do everything! Stop walking the dog. After all if a man tried to breastfeed because he wanted to that would be silly right? Or if I had a small dog and wanted him to be a sled dog...ain't going to happen!

But yes, continue on with your training and meanwhile my dog and I have an amazing relationship build on love and trust! He does things for me because he wants to!

OP, I think you should look into veganism. I think the philosophy would appeal to you.

Op I think you are in the wrong thread.

Nope. OP thinks she is right and knows better without actually knowing anything. Sounds like a vegan. Some of them have the craziest ideas about pets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We use a prong collar with rubber tips. It’s only on for walks and has a quicl release jic. Ours is a larger breed puppy and she’s much safer with this than the harness which did nothing to slow her down. I’d much rather the occasional easily corrected pinch than both of us being pulled into traffic. We DO use positive reinforcement as well and training. Both are needed with some dogs. When she’s older we can go back to the martingale.

Op here Please. Do you think it is ok to "occasionally" hit your kid?

I’m sorry you’re unfulfilled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We use a prong collar with rubber tips. It’s only on for walks and has a quicl release jic. Ours is a larger breed puppy and she’s much safer with this than the harness which did nothing to slow her down. I’d much rather the occasional easily corrected pinch than both of us being pulled into traffic. We DO use positive reinforcement as well and training. Both are needed with some dogs. When she’s older we can go back to the martingale.

Op here Please. Do you think it is ok to "occasionally" hit your kid?

Are you a parent of a human child? Or just a fur mom? Really asking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, We tried the Zak George approach with our sweet natured, but extremely strong large breed dog. He can be walking beautifully along side me, but if there's something he wants to sniff or sees a squirrel, all bets are off and he pulls. I've been pulled down 3 times and have had cuts/bruises. A family member ended up in the ER with a broken arm.

We're not the only ones with stories like this with this breed. We started working with a trainer 1:1 and yes, the prong collar is helping tremendously with curbing the pulling.

It's a safety issue. We love our dog and want to keep him, but we also can't be injured in the process. So, OP, with all due respect, eff off.

Op here There is nothing respectful about telling someone to F off. If you were very confident that you were doing the right thing you wouldn't get so angry. Did you even read the article? The one dog almost lost their eye because of a prong collar. So how would you feel if you really hurt your dog?

There are other ways but, you want the quick result and I feel sorry for your poor dog.

NP I read it.

That particular dog did not stop pulling and it caused his eye to pop out. I’m guessing the collar was not properly fitted so not giving the intended feedback from that style. Most dogs self correct immediately with a training collar. Also they specifically mentioned sharp prong collars, not all of them are.

Choke chains are different and I agree with you on them being unsafe.

[Anonymous]

Interestingly, OP's thread title seems apt. There is some evidence that after years of universal promotion (online) of positive-only training and universal condemnation (pnline) of balanced training, that the pendulum has swung and now aversives are the more popular solution for dog training.

Problems with walking? Get a prong collar. Done.

Positive only training is in crisis. OP is correct about that.

[Anonymous]

I follow Zak George and agree with him on some things (I think Dog Daddy IS abusive and should be stopped amd I think positive over negative is generally good) but he's lost his way and become a total clown with being even somewhat reasonable about using any kind of correction. It's the dog equivalent of not only being against abusers (who isn't? But being a gentle parenting nazi who thinks a time out or grabbing your kids hand from an open flame and yelling or, God forbid! Using the worrd "NO" will cause lifelong psychological damage. That's just not the case, and his approach fails a lot of dogs. He also has really, really low expectations of his dog training. Like if your kidd doesn't kill anyone and gets a GED by 25 and showers once a day living in your basement, congrats! You've raised a successful adult with a job! Some of us want more from our animals. He still has not given an even somewhat acceptable answer to how he trains human and dog reactive dogs. Because...he can't. His skills are extremely limited.

I recommened Robert Cabral.

[Anonymous]

Encourage them to get dog training. My retired parents adopted a very energetic chow retriever who pulled my mother down on walks and I was really worried that they would have to return him. It was dangerous for her to walk him. He would also get excited when I visited and nearly knock me down at the door. They were his 3rd home at 2 years old.

My parents instead went and took training classes at Pet Smart. They both went and worked really hard to understand the dog and get to a good place where he became a good and safe walker no matter who was walking him. No choke or prong collar was needed. He turned out to be one the best dogs by the time training was done. It took a lot of patience but it was definitely worth the investment.

[Anonymous]

I think the prolapsed eye from the original story is somewhat clickbait-y. Some breeds (looking at you, pugs and frenchies) have that as a very common occurrence because of the way they are bred. Yet another reason I would never have one. It doesn’t take much to prolapse an eye on a dog where the eye socket isn’t functional.

I don’t use prong collars, but some dogs need more restraint. I use a rope slip collar on my hound because when she hits hunt mode, I need it to stop her running off. That instinct is also bred into her…incredibly difficult to train it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Encourage them to get dog training. My retired parents adopted a very energetic chow retriever who pulled my mother down on walks and I was really worried that they would have to return him. It was dangerous for her to walk him. He would also get excited when I visited and nearly knock me down at the door. They were his 3rd home at 2 years old.

My parents instead went and took training classes at Pet Smart. They both went and worked really hard to understand the dog and get to a good place where he became a good and safe walker no matter who was walking him. No choke or prong collar was needed. He turned out to be one the best dogs by the time training was done. It took a lot of patience but it was definitely worth the investment.

Op here. .. That is really great to hear about your parents! Problem is these friends have gone to trainers and they believe this is the only way. This is one of the reason some people get smaller dogs when they are older. To avoid being pulled down.

I agree Zak George isn't perfect but, he does correct if you watch his videos closely. He rewards when the dog makes the better choice. Then the dog wants to make the correct choice! My dog is living proof of that. Granted it is taking more time but, I think we expect too much from our dogs too soon. That was the point of this thread. People expect dogs to be this cuddly thing to use when they are lonely or sad but, heaven forbid they don't learn something right away or have more needs than we are willing to give. What I have learned if I am teaching my dog something and he doesn't get it that it is usually my fault because I did not communicate clearly.

Btw, my mutt and I got our AKC novice certificate! Not so humble brag!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Encourage them to get dog training. My retired parents adopted a very energetic chow retriever who pulled my mother down on walks and I was really worried that they would have to return him. It was dangerous for her to walk him. He would also get excited when I visited and nearly knock me down at the door. They were his 3rd home at 2 years old.

My parents instead went and took training classes at Pet Smart. They both went and worked really hard to understand the dog and get to a good place where he became a good and safe walker no matter who was walking him. No choke or prong collar was needed. He turned out to be one the best dogs by the time training was done. It took a lot of patience but it was definitely worth the investment.

Op here. .. That is really great to hear about your parents! Problem is these friends have gone to trainers and they believe this is the only way. This is one of the reason some people get smaller dogs when they are older. To avoid being pulled down.

I agree Zak George isn't perfect but, he does correct if you watch his videos closely. He rewards when the dog makes the better choice. Then the dog wants to make the correct choice! My dog is living proof of that. Granted it is taking more time but, I think we expect too much from our dogs too soon. That was the point of this thread. People expect dogs to be this cuddly thing to use when they are lonely or sad but, heaven forbid they don't learn something right away or have more needs than we are willing to give. What I have learned if I am teaching my dog something and he doesn't get it that it is usually my fault because I did not communicate clearly.

Btw, my mutt and I got our AKC novice certificate! Not so humble brag!

Good for you, OP.

What you are ignoring is that dogs are animals and can be dangerous. Taking longer to get a dog to be safe - that's a bad and dangerous way to go about in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the prolapsed eye from the original story is somewhat clickbait-y. Some breeds (looking at you, pugs and frenchies) have that as a very common occurrence because of the way they are bred. Yet another reason I would never have one. It doesn’t take much to prolapse an eye on a dog where the eye socket isn’t functional.

I don’t use prong collars, but some dogs need more restraint. I use a rope slip collar on my hound because when she hits hunt mode, I need it to stop her running off. That instinct is also bred into her…incredibly difficult to train it out.

This is very true. They were careful not to say what kind of dog it was. This sounds alarming to the average person but is shockingly common for some breeds, with or without choke collar.