Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima. For Pete's sake. Mohammed's first wife owned property before Islam even appeared. Islam did not "grant property rights to women." Why do you keep saying that?

Also, you're the one who is so big on using context to interpret the Quran, yet in this case you insist on ignoring context. You're talking about people who were acting 1400 years ago in a context of establishing relations with another tribe. Nor does pledging allegiance to the ruler of another tribe have anything to do with *choosing* the ruler that you pledge to or the "ballots" you kept referring to.

Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, you are almost single handedly engaging in a modern day lynching, except you don't have access to a rope and tree so you are doing it online.

As a Muslim woman, I can validate the truth of what Muslima has published thus far in defense of her statement support Islam granted women voting rights over 1400 years ago.

The sura Ash Shura means "consultation" and the verses she quoted are evidence that women had political say, they had the right to offer their oath of allegiance to rulers if they wanted and this was independent of their father or husband making an oath.

You said this oath of allegiance is different from voting. Not necessarily. Ash Shura, the Sura in the Quran, states those who believe in Allah will rely on consultations for deciding any matter that requires a collective opinion. This hints at the importance of democratic decisions. The language does not only refer to males, either. This requirement to come to a decision collectively applies to men and women. This is powerful evidence that women were not excluded from political decision making. Their opinion counted too.

You asked why muslim countries took so long to give Muslim women voting rights. Its a logical question and has a simple answer that any intelligent person should be able to deduce. After the Prophet died, the condition and treatment of women deteriorated, and slowly returned to pre-Islamic times. Muslima tried to explain to you, numerous times, that Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries do not fairly reflect Islamic practice. Your misunderstanding of Islam stems basically from your inability to distinguish Islamic faith from Muslim practice.

Now you want Muslima to be banned from DCUM when you have done nothing but engaged in a modern day, online lynching of her? You follow her from thread to thread. One member of your racist group told her to go back to her country. Yet, you want HER banned?

You represent the ugly, disgusting, loathsome minority with your hatred of Islam and vendetta against religious Muslims. Very few people have come to your defense because your exposed yourself to be a promoter of hate. On the other hand, the reason more people have not come to Muslima's defense is because they recognize you may have a psychiatric disorder and explaining anything to you is pointless when you are on a one-woman-atheist-Islam-hating-racist mission.

Wow. What a hateful post. It says a lot more about you, dear little sidekick, than it says about anybody you are attacking.

There are at least three, and probably 4 or 5, posters here who are sick of Muslima's conversion efforts. Still, nobody here has called for Muslima to be "banned," you just made that up. However, another Muslim -- who is probably you -- repeatedly threatened various non-Muslim posters with removal by the moderator. Once one person, one single time and several threads ago, and who is not me, told Muslima to returned to her country. But on the other side of the scales, let's review the insults you've hurled at people:
- gap-toothed redneck
- bad cook
- husband about to divorce non-Muslim poster
- unemployed and unemployable
- drug-addicted son
- porn-addicted son
- Christian-evalngelical-crusader-Islamophobe.
- miniskirt-wearing granny
- stupid, ignorant, various synonyms for dumb

Looks like most of the bad behavior came straight from you!


The point is, there is no excuse for Muslima to say things like "Islam provides equal rights for women" when she knows very well that this will be misunderstood by Western ears. There is no excuse for Muslima to claim converts exceed immigrants when the facts, provided by you or by her, prove quite the opposite. There is no excuse for Muslima's insulting, abusive behavior whenever anybody questions her. If she wants to clean up her act, I'm sure many people here would welcome her. Same goes for you.

Anonymous wrote:
Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima. For Pete's sake. Mohammed's first wife owned property before Islam even appeared. Islam did not "grant property rights to women." Why do you keep saying that?

Also, you're the one who is so big on using context to interpret the Quran, yet in this case you insist on ignoring context. You're talking about people who were acting 1400 years ago in a context of establishing relations with another tribe. Nor does pledging allegiance to the ruler of another tribe have anything to do with *choosing* the ruler that you pledge to or the "ballots" you kept referring to.

Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view. You have invested far too much time on harassing Muslima and vilifying my religion. The insults were deserved. You accuse Muslima and I of proselytizing. DCUM is not the place to proselytize. I sure as hell hope nobody contemplates life altering conversion based on information collected on DCUM. However, you and your one toothed back woods gang of three to five people do have an agenda, which is to trash Islam by publishing false information and you have incurred my wrath. You keep deliberately publishing false or misleading info because of your personal hatred toward Islam and I will most certainly reserve special language for you. As the western saying goes, if the shoe fits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view.

Most of these article were written by Muslims. They would say that, wouldn't they. What does it matter that most Muslim authors consider men/women rights to be equal? You aren't trying to make your case to Muslim authors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view. You have invested far too much time on harassing Muslima and vilifying my religion. The insults were deserved. You accuse Muslima and I of proselytizing. DCUM is not the place to proselytize. I sure as hell hope nobody contemplates life altering conversion based on information collected on DCUM. However, you and your one toothed back woods gang of three to five people do have an agenda, which is to trash Islam by publishing false information and you have incurred my wrath. You keep deliberately publishing false or misleading info because of your personal hatred toward Islam and I will most certainly reserve special language for you. As the western saying goes, if the shoe fits.

You're an embarrassment to your religion, and a very unskilled debater.

Pick better parts of Islam, there are many, and focus on them. Women's rights and other unlovely bits won't take you to victory.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima. For Pete's sake. Mohammed's first wife owned property before Islam even appeared. Islam did not "grant property rights to women." Why do you keep saying that?

Also, you're the one who is so big on using context to interpret the Quran, yet in this case you insist on ignoring context. You're talking about people who were acting 1400 years ago in a context of establishing relations with another tribe. Nor does pledging allegiance to the ruler of another tribe have anything to do with *choosing* the ruler that you pledge to or the "ballots" you kept referring to.

Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.

Dear Nasty a Little a Sidekick (you changed it to Muslim yourself): I just read the Sura Ash Shurra several times. I saw eye-for-eye there. (Did you know Jesus got rid of eye-for-eye? When Muslims tell potential converts they follow the same Jesus, that's not strictly true.) I saw some gruesome punishments for non-believers. And I saw this, which seems to be the closest to what you're saying:

Sahih International
And in anything over which you disagree - its ruling is [to be referred] to Allah . [Say], "That is Allah , my Lord; upon Him I have relied, and to Him I turn back."

Perhaps instead of waving your hands about passages in the Quran, in an abusive tone of voice no less, you need to cut and paste the exact lines. Both you and Muslima are really good with the cut and paste feature, so surely you can do this.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view.

Most of these article were written by Muslims. They would say that, wouldn't they. What does it matter that most Muslim authors consider men/women rights to be equal? You aren't trying to make your case to Muslim authors.

OMG, Muslims wrote their own history?? Next time i need to learn about islam and muslims, I will be sure to go ask the atheist expert what Islam says

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view. You have invested far too much time on harassing Muslima and vilifying my religion. The insults were deserved. You accuse Muslima and I of proselytizing. DCUM is not the place to proselytize. I sure as hell hope nobody contemplates life altering conversion based on information collected on DCUM. However, you and your one toothed back woods gang of three to five people do have an agenda, which is to trash Islam by publishing false information and you have incurred my wrath. You keep deliberately publishing false or misleading info because of your personal hatred toward Islam and I will most certainly reserve special language for you. As the western saying goes, if the shoe fits.

You're an embarrassment to your religion, and a very unskilled debater.

Pick better parts of Islam, there are many, and focus on them. Women's rights and other unlovely bits won't take you to victory.

Oh wow, you know all these parts about Islam, do enlighten us Sheikh Al Ibn-Anonymous ! As for us, we are not looking for victory, the very fact that you use the word victory shows where your mind is, in the gutter & not a good one.....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Wow. What a hateful post. It says a lot more about you, dear little sidekick, than it says about anybody you are attacking.

There are at least three, and probably 4 or 5, posters here who are sick of Muslima's conversion efforts. Still, nobody here has called for Muslima to be "banned," you just made that up. However, another Muslim -- who is probably you -- repeatedly threatened various non-Muslim posters with removal by the moderator. Once one person, one single time and several threads ago, and who is not me, told Muslima to returned to her country. But on the other side of the scales, let's review the insults you've hurled at people:
- gap-toothed redneck
- bad cook
- husband about to divorce non-Muslim poster
- unemployed and unemployable
- drug-addicted son
- porn-addicted son
- Christian-evalngelical-crusader-Islamophobe.
- miniskirt-wearing granny
- stupid, ignorant, various synonyms for dumb

Looks like most of the bad behavior came straight from you!


The point is, there is no excuse for Muslima to say things like "Islam provides equal rights for women" when she knows very well that this will be misunderstood by Western ears. There is no excuse for Muslima to claim converts exceed immigrants when the facts, provided by you or by her, prove quite the opposite. There is no excuse for Muslima's insulting, abusive behavior whenever anybody questions her. If she wants to clean up her act, I'm sure many people here would welcome her. Same goes for you.

Maybe those western ears need to stop trying to hear that which the western mind simply can not understand. Google articles on "Equal rights for women in Islam" and you will see most Muslim authors consider rights between men and women to not only be equitable, but equal also. Muslima is simply like every other Muslim expressing the same view. You have invested far too much time on harassing Muslima and vilifying my religion. The insults were deserved. You accuse Muslima and I of proselytizing. DCUM is not the place to proselytize. I sure as hell hope nobody contemplates life altering conversion based on information collected on DCUM. However, you and your one toothed back woods gang of three to five people do have an agenda, which is to trash Islam by publishing false information and you have incurred my wrath. You keep deliberately publishing false or misleading info because of your personal hatred toward Islam and I will most certainly reserve special language for you. As the western saying goes, if the shoe fits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima. For Pete's sake. Mohammed's first wife owned property before Islam even appeared. Islam did not "grant property rights to women." Why do you keep saying that?

Also, you're the one who is so big on using context to interpret the Quran, yet in this case you insist on ignoring context. You're talking about people who were acting 1400 years ago in a context of establishing relations with another tribe. Nor does pledging allegiance to the ruler of another tribe have anything to do with *choosing* the ruler that you pledge to or the "ballots" you kept referring to.

Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.

If that's the case, can you tell us why no Muslim scholar declared all subsequent rulers un-Islamic, since they ascended to power without popular consultations? When Mr. Abu Bakr, ruler #1 appointed Mr. Umar, ruler #2, IN HIS WILL, forget consulting anyone, why didn't anyone say hey! that's un-Islamic!

Before Abu Bakr (???? ???? ???) finalized his decision to appoint Umar (???? ???? ???) , he in fact mutually consulted the prominent Muslims, including Abdur Rahman ibn Awf (???? ???? ???) , Uthman bin Affan (???? ???? ???) , Ali ibn Abi Talib (???? ???? ???) , and Talhah ibn Ubayd-Allah (???? ???? ???) .
During the process of Shura, it was only Abdur Rahman bin Awf (???? ???? ???) and Talhah (???? ???? ???) who raised any objections to Umar (???? ???? ???) , but then Abu Bakr (???? ???? ???) countered these points of contention, and then Abdur Rahman (???? ???? ???) and Talhah (???? ???? ???) both agreed with Abu Bakr’s rebuttal, so the matter was settled. As for Uthman (???? ???? ???) and Ali (???? ???? ???) , they both favored Umar (???? ???? ???) .

Therefore, we have established that the principle of Shura was very much involved in the nomination of Umar (???? ???? ???) ; the prominent representatives–including all the major figures of the Ansars and Muhajirs–selected Umar (???? ???? ???) after mutual consultation. Furthermore, Umar (???? ???? ???) secured the “consent of the governed”.

bu Bakr (???? ???? ???) would even ask the people’s permission before finalizing his will. After writing in his will that Umar (???? ???? ???) was to be the Caliph, he asked Uthman (???? ???? ???) to read the will outloud to the people (i.e. the masses) and ask if they approved of it. We read:

(Uthman said): “Will you (all) pledge allegiance to the person in whose favor a will has been made in this letter?

The people said: “Yes.” …All accepted and agreed to pledge allegiance to Umar. Then Abu Bakr called Umar in solitude and gave him whatever advice he wanted to.

(Ibn Saad; Al-Tabaqat Al-Kubra, Vol.3, p.200)

Similarly, we read:

Then the Caliph (Abu Bakr) summoned all the people of Medinah to assemble in the court of the Mosque. He addressed them from the window of his house which opened into the court. (Abu Bakr said): “O people! I have appointed Umar ibn al-Khattab as my successor. He is not my relative, but he is the best among you. Are you satisfied with him? Will you obey him?” The people answered with one accord, “yes, we will obey him.” The Caliph was pleased and prayed for God’s favour on Umar and the Muslims.

Anonymous wrote:PS, good luck in landing that PR job you're seeking! From your performance here, you'll kill at it. Literally.