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[quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Muslima. For Pete's sake. Mohammed's first wife owned property before Islam even appeared. Islam did not "grant property rights to women."  Why do you keep saying that?

Also, you're the one who is so big on using context to interpret the Quran, yet in this case you insist on ignoring context. You're talking about people who were acting 1400 years ago in a context of establishing relations with another tribe. Nor does pledging allegiance to the ruler of another tribe have anything to do with *choosing* the ruler that you pledge to or the "ballots" you kept referring to.[/quote]

Read, woman, read. Nasty Little Muslim here. We just got through telling you that in Sura Ash Shurra there is a verse on the requirement of mutual consultations to decide all matters that require a collective opinion. It clearly makes this statement to both men and women. This means even in political matters, women's opinion mattered because usually political matters require a collective vote or opinion. But this ruling goes for everything from voting on a ruler to deciding who should clean the mosque that week.[/quote]
If that's the case, can you tell us why no Muslim scholar declared all subsequent rulers un-Islamic, since they ascended to power without popular consultations? When Mr. Abu Bakr, ruler #1 appointed Mr. Umar, ruler #2, IN HIS WILL, forget consulting anyone, why didn't anyone say hey! that's un-Islamic![/quote]

Keep spewing your ignorance, and we will "try" to educate you....

[quote]Before Abu Bakr (???? ???? ???) finalized his decision to appoint Umar (???? ???? ???) , he in fact mutually consulted the prominent Muslims, including Abdur Rahman ibn Awf (???? ???? ???) , Uthman bin Affan (???? ???? ???) , Ali ibn Abi Talib (???? ???? ???) , and Talhah ibn Ubayd-Allah (???? ???? ???) . 
During the process of Shura, it was only Abdur Rahman bin Awf (???? ???? ???) and Talhah (???? ???? ???) who raised any objections to Umar (???? ???? ???) , but then Abu Bakr (???? ???? ???) countered these points of contention, and then Abdur Rahman (???? ???? ???) and Talhah (???? ???? ???) both agreed with Abu Bakr’s rebuttal, so the matter was settled. As for Uthman (???? ???? ???) and Ali (???? ???? ???) , they both favored Umar (???? ???? ???) .

Therefore, we have established that the principle of Shura was very much involved in the nomination of Umar (???? ???? ???) ; the prominent representatives–including all the major figures of the Ansars and Muhajirs–selected Umar (???? ???? ???) after mutual consultation. Furthermore, Umar (???? ???? ???) secured the “consent of the governed”.

bu Bakr (???? ???? ???) would even ask the people’s permission before finalizing his will. After writing in his will that Umar (???? ???? ???) was to be the Caliph, he asked Uthman (???? ???? ???) to read the will outloud to the people (i.e. the masses) and ask if they approved of it. We read:
[b]
(Uthman said): “Will you (all) pledge allegiance to the person in whose favor a will has been made in this letter?

The people said: “Yes.” …All accepted and agreed to pledge allegiance to Umar. Then Abu Bakr called Umar in solitude and gave him whatever advice he wanted to.[/b]

(Ibn Saad; Al-Tabaqat Al-Kubra, Vol.3, p.200)

Similarly, we read:

[b]Then the Caliph (Abu Bakr) summoned all the people of Medinah to assemble in the court of the Mosque. He addressed them from the window of his house which opened into the court. (Abu Bakr said): “O people! I have appointed Umar ibn al-Khattab as my successor. He is not my relative, but he is the best among you. Are you satisfied with him? Will you obey him?” The people answered with one accord, “yes, we will obey him.” The Caliph was pleased and prayed for God’s favour on Umar and the Muslims.[/b][/quote]

But, wait, the Muslims wrote this  :shock: [/quote]

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