Anonymous wrote:Why do many refs struggle so hard to apply the offsides rule? What kind of training is provided on this rule?

First of all, it's "offside".
Second, the vast majority of the time, the AR, who is in the best position to see offside, gets it right, and the people that are complaining are 50 yards away, with poor angles.
Third, when people do struggle to apply the rule, it's because the interpretation of the rule is constantly changing from year to year, and you may have the instinct to raise the flag, or keep it lowered, for a something that would have been a violation last year, but isn't supposed to be this year.
Plus, trying to figure out passive vs. active offside in a split second is hard as hell.

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:Someone suggested a referee AMA on the VYS thread. That actually seems like a good idea.

I've only been reffing for a couple of years. For my first two years, I did a wide range of games -- many different age groups, several different leagues and tournaments, etc. Since I caught COVID-19 in March and felt that my lungs hadn't fully recovered, I eased back into it this year doing U-9 and U-10 games, mostly in the VYS House league but also some NCSL games and WAGS Tournament games. I feel good, so I'm taking some slightly bigger challenges toward the end of the season.

I know other refs lurk here. And I know a lot of parents have questions (or faulty assumptions).

So ... ask away. And answer away.

Why do you miss so many calls, and always seem to favor the other team?

Because we don't like you.

Anonymous wrote:Many refs seem to be overweight elderly men. Why is this?

Gosh, found this thread late...so much to unpack, but I thought I'd start with this one.
Just for reference, I've been reffing for about 20 years, from low level pro, to U8s, and everything in between.

So, let me put this as delicately as possible....the reason your ref is overweight, or slow, or just plain bad? Well, it's because your game is unimportant in the general scheme of things, and that's the best ref the assignor could get.
Higher level refs...the ones with advanced training and fitness tests, are doing higher level games.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of great refs doing lower level games too, but there are SO many games, and so few refs, that there are plenty of people reffing games that probably shouldn't be.
There are also plenty of coaches that are terrible, plenty of players who should be in rec, and plenty of parents that can't accept this.

Anonymous wrote:Referees: You should not be manufacturing restarts anymore. You should never drop the ball to a team and tell them to play back to the other team's goal keeper. Those days are over. If you blow the whistle for an injured player and the ball s still in play, the drop ball goes to the team that last touched/possessed the ball. Period.

And if a team kicks it out for an injured player, well it's up to the other team to throw it in to team that kicked it out. It's not the referee's decision.

Parents: Remind the referees of this if you see it happening

Parents: Do not talk to the ref. If there’s a problem, let the coach deal with it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The keeper on my sons team is very aggressive coming out. He takes out an opposing player at least every other game. Other teams parents always yell and complain. The official usually just says play on or warns the other player not to run into the keeper. Ive seen some teams hesitate to make runs in the box afterwards. Our coach always praise the Keeper sayin "own your box".

A keeper cannot take out an opposing player. I've seen keepers get Red cards for it.

Absolutely wrong. A keeper has every right to slide into a charging field player with the ball in the box. As long its going for the ball and cleats down its totally legal. Ive seen many a striker helped off the field by a coach because he was "taken out" by the keeper.

This is completely and totally wrong.
If the keeper slides in and makes contact with the ball, and the attacker falls over the keeper, there's no foul.
But if the keeper is going for the ball, misses, and takes out the attacker? 100% foul.
And also keep in mind, that just like any other player on the field, just because the keeper gets ball first doesn't mean he can take out the other player with impunity. You can get ball first, and still foul the player.

Anonymous wrote:Another question is why refs have ARs that they refuse to acknowledge? How many games are you at where the AR has his/her flag up for an offside call, and every parent there has to scream at the ref to look at the AR. Or, when the AR, who definitely has the better field position to judge something, and calls it, only to have the out of shape ref come panting down the field moments later, and overturn what he/she clearly could not see? That kind of stuff is infuriating.

As a ref, one of the hardest things to remember is to constantly look over to the AR during the run of play, and it's really easy to miss an offside flag when you're watching a fast play develop.
In the higher levels, the ARs use electronic flags, with a button that sends a signal to a CR's armband, which buzzes and vibrates.
If I don't notice the offside flag up, it's one of the few times where I'm happy if parents yell at me.

As for why CRs don't use their ARs better in general, I'd say it's a combination of inexperienced ARs that the centers don't really trust, inexperienced CRs that feel like they'll look weak if they don't make all the calls themselves, and egotistical older CRs that simply don't use the help they need.

Anonymous wrote:

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

Not the PP but I would agree, good refs get yelled at less.

Of course, from your reply it's obvious that you think you're a good ref but since still you get yelled at a lot, you think the statement isn't true. However, another possible explanation explanation is that despite having reffed for a long time, you're not that good.

Just because someone has been reffing forever does not equate to being a good ref. In fact, one of the worse referees in Northern Virginia has been doing it for probably two decades and was once the head of referees at a local club but I've lost count of how many horrible, game-changing calls I've seen him make, including several where his ARs told him he was wrong, but he's still out there, I'm sure thinking he's a good ref.

Obviously, I'm not going to waste my time arguing whether I'm a good ref or not.
I'm basing my statement on 20 years of reffing, instructing and assessing other refs. As a former State Referee, (I've since dropped down since I ref far less now that my kids play), I have passed dozens of assessments as well.
Again, I'm not going to claim that means I'm good, but I am extremely experienced and objectively speaking, highly knowledgeable of the Laws, and have reffed everything from USL, to DA, to U8.
And I can say with absolute certainty that how well a ref performs in a game has little to do with how much harassment they receive.

Certainly, as you go up in levels the harassment diminishes, simply because there are fewer parents at the game, and as has been said previously, it's easier to control players and coaches than it is to control parents.

But in general, especially in the younger age groups, I've watched refs perform basically flawlessly, and get screamed at all game by parents just as much as refs doing poorly.
And I've reffed terrible games where no one has said a word, and I've reffed strong games where parents have yelled at every call.
There is little rhyme or reason to it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

Would I support a zero tolerance policy on referee harassment?
Sure!
Do I think the policy the OP found makes sense?
No.

Look, believe me, nobody is against ref harassment more than I am. I've been doing this a long time, and parents are getting worse and worse, and players, especially younger ones, and aping their parents behavior.

But we have to use common sense. We don't need to kick out a parent that disagrees with a call, and yells out "no way!" At least he first time.
And we don't need to kick out coaches the first time they complain either.

There are some better things to do. FIFA is close to allowing refs to card coaches as we card players. It's a much clearer and simpler way to address coach behavior. Right now, coaches know that they can lean on a ref all game, and they may get warned, but that really means nothing. Especially with younger refs, they're far more comfortable pulling out and showing a coach a card than they are going over to tell the coach to stop. A coach that gets a YC knows exactly what it means. Some tournaments allow this already, but most don't.

As for parents, it's a lot more challenging. I have a much lower threshold for considering parents out of line than I do a coach. A quick spontaneous complaint...fine. Things I won't accept, and give one, and only one warning...anything that's a personal insult, anything implying a lack of fairness, and, now more than every, any parents encouraging their kids to me more physical towards opponents.

In the end, as a parent you need to choose your battles. Don't complain about a meaningless throw in (an they're all meaningless). Don't complain about an offside call. If it's three refs, the AR has a MUCH better view than you do, and if it's one ref, accept that they're guessing on all offside calls and let it go.
And never, never approach a ref to complain at half time or after a game. If you respectfully want a call explained, fine, but believe me, I can tell from 30 yards away if you have good intentions or not.

So yes, harassment should be out of the game. But there are enough gray areas that I don't think we need such a firm black and white policy.

Geiger did a decent job in a brutally difficult game. Combined with his earlier games, FIFA was happy enough with his performance to keep him around until the end of the tournament...an honor in itself. He'll most likely be a VAR in one of the last three games.

Anonymous wrote:OP Here. Thanks! I had found both of those websites, but wasn't sure how to help begin the process. Does he need a Level 6 certification to start? Some other level?

Nope.
Your kid should be taking the entry level (Grade 8) certification class, and there is no prerequisite for it.
Just sign up and show up. Some classes have an online component as well.

This is AA...no one is throwing the ball hard enough to create the slightest bruise.
And I say this as a proud alum of WSLL many, many years ago.

Anonymous wrote:So the playout rule seems to be different every game(u10 girls). Some ref use the playout line as the offsides line, other do not. Some keep the offensive players out till the ball crosses the line, others when it leaves the box, still other when the defense touches the ball, etc. Whats the rule?

Here's how the build out line is supposed to function:

When a keeper gets the ball, the other team has to go behind the line, and can advance when the the ball leaves the keeper's hands.
On a goal kick, the other team has to go behind the line, and can advance when the ball leaves the penalty box.
An attacker can't be in an offside position until he passes the build out line.

In practice, it's a mess. I've seen things called every conceivable way, and part of the problem is that the Maryland Referee Association, which runs the re-certifications I go to every year, has never mentioned the break out line to its refs as far as I can tell. Don't know what DC/Virginia is teaching.
For now, the coach should be asking the ref every game how they plan on calling it.

Anonymous wrote:This should be fun...I reffed soccer at every level through about 2006 (played semi-pro in the late 1990's as well.) So many things are different now - there were always jackwad parents, but so many more today. Also with kids specializing at an early age things begin to be all or nothing at 10, which is just stupid.

At the higher levels, there was always a fair amount of sniping, but it was mostly respectful. And it went both ways - refs and players would communicate. There were times as a ref I blew a call and owned up to it, or let the next iffy one go. And players would take responsibility.

Not so today. You see it most in pro basketball, where every player thinks he is LeBron and should get LeBron calls. In soccer these kids think every touch is a foul. every play is one-sided, every attack against them is personal. I chaulk it up to millennial parenting.

Yeah, that's about right.
I think there's so much money in it now, that parents take things more personally. I have kids in travel, so I totally understand that.
And kids feed off of their parents attitude, and the attitudes they see on TV, which is so much more prevalent now than it was 20 years ago.

Anonymous wrote:Ref - thanks for answering these questions. Mine goes back to an article that was in the Washington Post (?) about a year ago and the difficulty attracting referees due to parents harassing them during games. My daughter plays travel U15 (has played travel since U9) and in all honesty, I cannot ever recall a parent crossing the line or berating an official. Maybe I've been lucky or just around good groups (including our opponents). I have witnessed refs on two instances push an issue with a parent that wasn't there - more the instigator than anything.

My questions are; 1) at what point is the ref held accountable for making bad calls or letting games get physically out of hand and 2) are they ever evaluated or is it purely based on a coach or parent reporting them? If any of us in our day jobs perform as poorly as I have seen some ref a game, we wouldn't be around. A portion of our dues for soccer (be it House or Travel or Tournaments) go to paying the refs. I feel they should be evaluated or at least open to respectful criticism from parents. (Note - I do not include middle school and high school kids who are serving as referees. I simply mean adults who referee.)

Thanks you.

There are two types of harassment…the constant complaints on every call from the parents and coaches, and the verbal abuse that really crosses the line.
You’re very lucky that you’ve never witnessed the latter, but every referee has to deal with it at least a few times a season.

The former is almost as bad though, because it’s relentless. You need a very specific type of personality and a very thick skin to be able to shrug off the yelling you hear constantly during a game. Most refs quit, justifiably, because it’s just so hard to deal with that kind of constant negativity.
Imagine how quickly your kid would quit soccer if they got screamed at every time they had a bad touch, or a bad shot, without ever getting an encouraging word. And don’t forget that ref get yelled at over good calls constantly too.

So yes, this all leads to a massive ref shortage, which means an assignor is desperate to fill the schedule holes, which means there are a lot of bad refs getting games, that in an ideal world, they wouldn’t be getting.

Becoming a ref is easy. You need a few classroom sessions, and pass a pretty easy test.
There are no physical tests or evaluations until you want to want to go to a higher referee grade, and most of the refs that do move up are doing high level youth games, or DA matches. The vast, vast majority of refs you see on a daily basis have never upgraded.

Are they ever held accountable? Rarely. A coach can complain to an assignor, and if they hear a bunch of complaints about a certain ref, they may stop using them. That doesn’t happen often though, because most complaints are about subjective calls, and come from the team that lost. It’s hard to take those seriously.

Should a parent be allowed to talk to a ref about the calls? Sure, if they’re actually doing so respectfully, and the game is over, maybe at half time if the ref is by the parents line when the whistle blows. But while I’m sure you’re being respectful about it, the vast majority of parents that come to talk to me start out in confrontational mode, and if I do explain a call, they’ll argue with me, even if I quote something directly from the Laws. Too many parents that are around the game for years think that they know the laws by osmosis, and have never actually sat down and read them. If you come to me with a question after the game, I’m happy to answer, and tell why I did or didn’t make a call. But then you need to say thank you, and move on.

“If any of us in our day jobs perform as poorly as I have seen some ref a game, we wouldn't be around”

Respectfully, I hate that comment. Unless you’re watching REALLY high level games, you not watching any refs who do it as their day jobs. It’s a hobby. Yes, we’re getting paid, but expecting us to be truly “professional” refs is just plain unrealistic. We do our best. We get paid because very, very few would do it otherwise, and you don’t want to do it yourself.
There is no easy solution here. I don’t think raising ref fees would help too much. You can try to mandate that only upgraded refs get hired, but there simply aren’t enough of those to go around. You could use one ref and have club assistants on more games, so you’d need fewer refs, but then you’d have to accept more bad calls, especially when offside is concerned.

So what can you do? I challenge all the parents that read this to try to go a full game without complaining about a ref's calls, no matter how hard that is to do. It's hard, but it's a start.