My tween is... clueless? Rude? Needs help?

[Anonymous]

My 11 yo has always been pretty bad about acting appropriately in social situations involving adults. Saying hello and thanks took forever to stick. He would sometimes avoid the high five from a teacher. A simple birthday or thank you card was always a struggle - he would want to write some “joke” that was just not appropriate for the occasion; apparently writing a simple happy birthday was difficult? Too boring?
He also doesn’t like school and what’s worse is insisting on being “honest” about it. He is writing things like “it’s been ok here I guess but it wasn’t really fun” for 5th grade speech (we had to sit down and edit it). He wrote “I am sorry I can’t compare X to Y because I wasn’t listening to a single word you said” in his social studies diary. I saw it by chance and made him edit it, but I can’t keep policing all his schoolwork.
His teacher is great and seems to be cool with it, but I did get comments about it from other teachers. I am worried about middle school. I am all for the teachers talking to him and/or disciplining him for it, but I don’t want them to be bringing this up to me unless they think he needs help and not just garden variety disciplining.
I have a feeling that it’s some kind of social cluelessness plus maybe anxiety in social situations. My father can be like that, my ex husband can be like that, DS doesn’t spend tons of time with either of them but it might be genetic.
Who should I bring this up to? I keep explaining to him how society works and how this just makes the wrong impression on people who don’t know him well. But I don’t think he cares too much.
I am a people pleaser and it just seems outrageous to me how he is like that.

[Anonymous]

You expect too much from an 11 yo.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you’re the one with anxiety OP.

[Anonymous]

Doesn’t sound that bad to me.

I’d just keep reminding him. It will sink in.

[Anonymous]

He does sound rude, I’m sorry op. I hate to say this, but do you think he might be on the spectrum? Does he have trouble understanding others’ emotions?

[Anonymous]

Sounds like he has problems with perspective taking. It is a lagging social skill, he's not being rude on purpose. He just doesn't understand the other person's perspective and resulting consequences.

You have to explicitly teach him perspective taking....

Give him scenarios and ask him how different players are feeling (don't make the scenarios personal).

Read children's books with an emotional component (like the chicken soup for the soul series) and ask him to identify people's feelings.

Check out stuff by Michelle Garcia Winner. Two of her books that can help are "You Too Can be a Social Detective" and "Social Fortune or Social Fate". Also check out Ryan Wexelblatt's youtube channel for videos on perspective taking. BTW, this social skills stuff is targeted at kids with ADHD or autism because they very commonly have lagging social skills, but I think it's fair to say a lot of young boys have lagging social skills even if they're not in one of these groups.

Garcia's framework - which you have to explicitly teach him - is basically that when you do what's expected, people have good thoughts about you. When you do what's unexpected, people have bad thoughts about you. For example, when someone says hi to you, they expect you to say hi back. When you don't, that's unexpected. and will cause the other person to have weird/bad thoughts about you. They will remember these negative feelings the next time they see you. When you write someone a birthday card, it's expected that you write happy birthday. When you write a joke, that's unexpected, and will cause the other person to have negative/bad thoughts, etc...

When these situations happen in real life, instead of saying "that's rude," say, "I bet so and so didn't expect that, I wonder if they're having bad thoughts about you now." Keep modeling and doing this over and over in real life.

[Anonymous]

I am still working on basic manners with my 11yr old--look in the eyes when an adult is talking to you and asking you questions; dont just "good" when asked how you are; say 'thank you' when you leave someone's care (playdates etc); say "thank you" to the coach at the end of practice etc

[Anonymous]

Sounds like a combination of nervous/hesitant around adults (especially authority figure adults like teachers), trying to compensate for his nervousness by being jokey even when not necessarily appropriate, and garden variety middle school boy immaturity. I’ll be honest, nothing that you described seems all that bad for that age. Did you love making small talk with teachers when you were 11?

[Anonymous]

You need to work with him on his letters, emails to teachers and model/help him with scripts that are appropriate. Yes, at 11 you still need to police things.

[Anonymous]

I think you should cut/paste your post on the special needs forum.

I didn't figure out that my kid was on the spectrum until she was much older.

I'm not saying your kid is or is not, but the folks on the SN forum are really helpful. They will ask you followup questions and try and direct you. They can tell you what's normal and what's not because many of us have NT (neuro-typical) kids as well as our SN kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you should cut/paste your post on the special needs forum.

I didn't figure out that my kid was on the spectrum until she was much older.

I'm not saying your kid is or is not, but the folks on the SN forum are really helpful. They will ask you followup questions and try and direct you. They can tell you what's normal and what's not because many of us have NT (neuro-typical) kids as well as our SN kid.

This is not a special need. Kids need to be taught how to write appropriate letters, emails and responses. OP needs to work with him. We spent a lot of time working with ours and we always review it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He does sound rude, I’m sorry op. I hate to say this, but do you think he might be on the spectrum? Does he have trouble understanding others’ emotions?

I have no idea. He sometimes provides very astute observations/insights re: others’ behavior. He knows how to pull the strings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to work with him on his letters, emails to teachers and model/help him with scripts that are appropriate. Yes, at 11 you still need to police things.

This is what I have been doing. I just can’t believe it doesn’t sink in. He is a bright young man and if he forgets something or can’t learn something (not physical) it means he is just not interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you should cut/paste your post on the special needs forum.

I didn't figure out that my kid was on the spectrum until she was much older.

I'm not saying your kid is or is not, but the folks on the SN forum are really helpful. They will ask you followup questions and try and direct you. They can tell you what's normal and what's not because many of us have NT (neuro-typical) kids as well as our SN kid.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he has problems with perspective taking. It is a lagging social skill, he's not being rude on purpose. He just doesn't understand the other person's perspective and resulting consequences.

You have to explicitly teach him perspective taking....

Give him scenarios and ask him how different players are feeling (don't make the scenarios personal).

Read children's books with an emotional component (like the chicken soup for the soul series) and ask him to identify people's feelings.

Check out stuff by Michelle Garcia Winner. Two of her books that can help are "You Too Can be a Social Detective" and "Social Fortune or Social Fate". Also check out Ryan Wexelblatt's youtube channel for videos on perspective taking. BTW, this social skills stuff is targeted at kids with ADHD or autism because they very commonly have lagging social skills, but I think it's fair to say a lot of young boys have lagging social skills even if they're not in one of these groups.

Garcia's framework - which you have to explicitly teach him - is basically that when you do what's expected, people have good thoughts about you. When you do what's unexpected, people have bad thoughts about you. For example, when someone says hi to you, they expect you to say hi back. When you don't, that's unexpected. and will cause the other person to have weird/bad thoughts about you. They will remember these negative feelings the next time they see you. When you write someone a birthday card, it's expected that you write happy birthday. When you write a joke, that's unexpected, and will cause the other person to have negative/bad thoughts, etc...

When these situations happen in real life, instead of saying "that's rude," say, "I bet so and so didn't expect that, I wonder if they're having bad thoughts about you now." Keep modeling and doing this over and over in real life.

Thank you, the Garcia framework sounds very helpful! He responds well to very pragmatic explanations and reasoning.
He hates all the SEL that his school is very proud of though