My tween is... clueless? Rude? Needs help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am still working on basic manners with my 11yr old--look in the eyes when an adult is talking to you and asking you questions; dont just "good" when asked how you are; say 'thank you' when you leave someone's care (playdates etc); say "thank you" to the coach at the end of practice etc

Thank you, it feels good to know I am not alone!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like a combination of nervous/hesitant around adults (especially authority figure adults like teachers), trying to compensate for his nervousness by being jokey even when not necessarily appropriate, and garden variety middle school boy immaturity. I’ll be honest, nothing that you described seems all that bad for that age. Did you love making small talk with teachers when you were 11?

Great, what a relief, thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You expect too much from an 11 yo.

Really? You think 'I wasn't listening to a single word you said" is an appropriate response to a school assignment?
Were you an entitled a-hole as a kid, too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am still working on basic manners with my 11yr old--look in the eyes when an adult is talking to you and asking you questions; dont just "good" when asked how you are; say 'thank you' when you leave someone's care (playdates etc); say "thank you" to the coach at the end of practice etc

This seems completely normal and age-appropriate to me. Sounds like your 11 yo is not being rude. It's just that he/she is not yet comfortable with the affirmative responses that constitute good manners in our society. Again, completely age-appropriate and what we're seeing around here with DCs' 10-13 yo cohort.

But what OP is describing goes a step or two further, so I understand his/her concern. Their DS's responses and behaviors look more like active rejection of social norms -- not that it's necessarily their DS's intention -- but it shows up as being dismissive or issuing a "take down" of sorts in situations where it's not appropriate.

FWIW, I don't think OP's son's behaviors are a huge deal -- we're seeing it in many of DS's peers, too. Sacrasm and snark are huge with tweens, and they have their place, of course. The kids see so much of it on TV and in social media, and it's usually played for a laugh or seen as a huge positive.

So . . . we've been working on context - reminding DS that his thoughts and ideas are always valid and appropriate in his head. BUT it's not always valid or appropriate to share them with others. That decision really depends on the context - who he's talking with, what the situation and expectations are (school vs. friends vs. home vs. grandparents), how that person might feel (the perspective-taking mentioned above) etc.

These concepts are easy for some kids to grasp, and harder for others. Just keep noticing and instructing. SO much of this is modeling appropriate behavior. Good luck, OP!

[Anonymous]

OP, your son sounds a lot like one of mine was in 5th grade (I keep checking the date to make sure I didn't write this myself years ago!). By high school, teachers constantly complemented us on how polite he was.

We did use perspective taking methods PP mentioned, and did a short stint with a speech language therapist on those very subjects even though DC does not have any sort of special needs diagnosis. It really helped make things click for him, and he moved on quickly from there. He just seemed to mature in this area later than peers and that made it difficult for a while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He does sound rude, I’m sorry op. I hate to say this, but do you think he might be on the spectrum? Does he have trouble understanding others’ emotions?

+1

[Anonymous]

If you feel it's rude, it is rude. You know him best.

It's immature and he's getting control by pushing buttons in you and maybe teachers too.

You need to take that back. Confront him - 11 this is rude and you will not act like this. You will not write those things. It is not okay. You are response for how you act, and I'm not having a rude son.

Eventually you teach methods to cope with frustration, not knowing, feeling alone, whatever insecurity is under the rudeness.

But for now, this us a come to jesus moment. And there will be more. And you set the tone for how they'll go. If you have emotions and fears about doing this, you work through those apart from him. But you do not allow and excuse a rude son.

But rudeness is not the option. Rude children don't get video games, treats, fancy rooms, whatever- where it matters home to him. He has a week to speak properly to you and to his teachers maybe then he can have those things back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am still working on basic manners with my 11yr old--look in the eyes when an adult is talking to you and asking you questions; dont just "good" when asked how you are; say 'thank you' when you leave someone's care (playdates etc); say "thank you" to the coach at the end of practice etc

This seems completely normal and age-appropriate to me. Sounds like your 11 yo is not being rude. It's just that he/she is not yet comfortable with the affirmative responses that constitute good manners in our society. Again, completely age-appropriate and what we're seeing around here with DCs' 10-13 yo cohort.

But what OP is describing goes a step or two further, so I understand his/her concern. Their DS's responses and behaviors look more like active rejection of social norms -- not that it's necessarily their DS's intention -- but it shows up as being dismissive or issuing a "take down" of sorts in situations where it's not appropriate.

FWIW, I don't think OP's son's behaviors are a huge deal -- we're seeing it in many of DS's peers, too. Sacrasm and snark are huge with tweens, and they have their place, of course. The kids see so much of it on TV and in social media, and it's usually played for a laugh or seen as a huge positive.

So . . . we've been working on context - reminding DS that his thoughts and ideas are always valid and appropriate in his head. BUT it's not always valid or appropriate to share them with others. That decision really depends on the context - who he's talking with, what the situation and expectations are (school vs. friends vs. home vs. grandparents), how that person might feel (the perspective-taking mentioned above) etc.

These concepts are easy for some kids to grasp, and harder for others. Just keep noticing and instructing. SO much of this is modeling appropriate behavior. Good luck, OP!

Thank you so much, PP. I do work on it but it just makes me very riled up and his resistance (“but honesty is the best policy!”) makes me want to smack him hard. But I do think of it as some sort of deficiency rather than spite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, your son sounds a lot like one of mine was in 5th grade (I keep checking the date to make sure I didn't write this myself years ago!). By high school, teachers constantly complemented us on how polite he was.

We did use perspective taking methods PP mentioned, and did a short stint with a speech language therapist on those very subjects even though DC does not have any sort of special needs diagnosis. It really helped make things click for him, and he moved on quickly from there. He just seemed to mature in this area later than peers and that made it difficult for a while.

Thank you PP! Should I try to seek a referral to a speech language therapist or pathologist or someone along these lines?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You expect too much from an 11 yo.

Really? You think 'I wasn't listening to a single word you said" is an appropriate response to a school assignment?
Were you an entitled a-hole as a kid, too?

OP here: I think this is wildly inappropriate, but not sure it automatically makes my son an a-hole. He is a normal, nice, kind child, but has these weird bouts of rudeness. I don’t know what’s driving it. And I want to find out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he has problems with perspective taking. It is a lagging social skill, he's not being rude on purpose. He just doesn't understand the other person's perspective and resulting consequences.

You have to explicitly teach him perspective taking....

Give him scenarios and ask him how different players are feeling (don't make the scenarios personal).

Read children's books with an emotional component (like the chicken soup for the soul series) and ask him to identify people's feelings.

Check out stuff by Michelle Garcia Winner. Two of her books that can help are "You Too Can be a Social Detective" and "Social Fortune or Social Fate". Also check out Ryan Wexelblatt's youtube channel for videos on perspective taking. BTW, this social skills stuff is targeted at kids with ADHD or autism because they very commonly have lagging social skills, but I think it's fair to say a lot of young boys have lagging social skills even if they're not in one of these groups.

Garcia's framework - which you have to explicitly teach him - is basically that when you do what's expected, people have good thoughts about you. When you do what's unexpected, people have bad thoughts about you. For example, when someone says hi to you, they expect you to say hi back. When you don't, that's unexpected. and will cause the other person to have weird/bad thoughts about you. They will remember these negative feelings the next time they see you. When you write someone a birthday card, it's expected that you write happy birthday. When you write a joke, that's unexpected, and will cause the other person to have negative/bad thoughts, etc...

When these situations happen in real life, instead of saying "that's rude," say, "I bet so and so didn't expect that, I wonder if they're having bad thoughts about you now." Keep modeling and doing this over and over in real life.

Np. Just want to say thank you for these resources. My son has a lot of social anxiety and we always attributed that to his odd social behavior. But I just bought the books hoping they will help a little. We have worked on it ourselves, but we clearly need to do more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like a combination of nervous/hesitant around adults (especially authority figure adults like teachers), trying to compensate for his nervousness by being jokey even when not necessarily appropriate, and garden variety middle school boy immaturity. I’ll be honest, nothing that you described seems all that bad for that age. Did you love making small talk with teachers when you were 11?

Great, what a relief, thank you!

Interesting. . . you post reminded me of a particular child I knew that age who struggled with respect for authority and always acted like he was the smartest person in the room. Took until 8th grade for his parents to try ADHD medication. Massive difference and changed their life. Kid went from one I viewed as super obnoxious to a pleasure to be around.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like he has a sarcastic wit. People will grow to appreciate it eventually. Childhood is the only time you are expected to be meek and compliant - these actually aren’t positive traits. Better that than a people pleaser.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like a combination of nervous/hesitant around adults (especially authority figure adults like teachers), trying to compensate for his nervousness by being jokey even when not necessarily appropriate, and garden variety middle school boy immaturity. I’ll be honest, nothing that you described seems all that bad for that age. Did you love making small talk with teachers when you were 11?

Great, what a relief, thank you!

Interesting. . . you post reminded me of a particular child I knew that age who struggled with respect for authority and always acted like he was the smartest person in the room. Took until 8th grade for his parents to try ADHD medication. Massive difference and changed their life. Kid went from one I viewed as super obnoxious to a pleasure to be around.

Fair point. My daughter had the same experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He does sound rude, I’m sorry op. I hate to say this, but do you think he might be on the spectrum? Does he have trouble understanding others’ emotions?

Agree. Aspergers and maybe some social classes or therapy would help with getting him to understand appropriate or expected responses and social norms.