That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can understand the sentence. It was basically a hookup at a frat party gone wrong. It doesn't make sense to send one party to prison for years.. There's no way to know when she became unconscious, but it was probably later rather than sooner.

No, IT WAS A RAPE, you idiot

Do you think a woman ever bears any responsibility re staying sober, not trusting drunk strangers, not walking down a street at 2 a.m. alone, etc? We're not doing any favors to perpetuate the myth that women can be and do anything they want and go anywhere they want without being responsible for their own safety to the degree possible. That's beyond naive and truly not very smart.

If I stand naked in the street at 2:00 am it doesn't give anyone the right to rape me.

you're right it doesn't. but would you advise your daughter to do so?

NP here. Safety advice I would give my child is completely irrelevant to whether someone is justified in committing a crime against them or whether the criminal deserves jail time.

I tell my kids to lock the front door. Whether they do, do but forger the deadbolt, or do not for some reason, if someone breaks in and steals their things it is still a crime and still the fault and moral responsibility of the thief.

Absolutely! But making the effort to try to be safe should still be the message.

I agree. One thing that really stands out in a lot of campus rape stories is the alcohol. And that goes for both men and women. It does not absolve men of blame, and it does not mean that women deserve to be assaulted. But when you are drinking enough to black out, you are putting yourself at risk. You can't depend on your friends to save you; they're drinking too. Like the victim here said, this man was looking to assault someone and if it hadn't been her, it would have been another woman. But very likely it would have been a woman who, like she did, had too much too drink. That's what these predators look for or take advantage of when they find it.

The number one thing women can do to protect themselves is not drink to excess, which probably means one drink only. Maybe things have changed but when I went to college in 1998, my parents impressed the following on me: do not go to parties where you don't know anyone; don't go to parties by yourself; don't accept any drink, even water, that's been opened or poured by someone else outside of your sight; don't ever go to a guy's room during a party; don't accept a ride or escort home from any guy you don't know well; don't ever invite a guy you don't know well into your own room.

Now, if you don't follow these rules, do you deserve to be sexually assaulted? Of course not. But why make yourself an easier target? Like the house-breaking example: yes, it is the burglar's fault, but doesn't the victim wish she'd locked her doors? I've read comments by college-age women who say "it's not fair, we should be able to drink as much as men, it's discriminatory to tell us we shouldn't." To which I answer: too bad. Not everything in life is fair. There are a hell of a lot of unfair things in this world, and it's not worth getting assaulted over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to teach my girls to assume all men are dirtbags (even though most are not), and unless you know EVERYONE you are with in a closed environment, and trust them completely, don't drink to the point of passing out. And I'm going to teach my sons to respect women and that no means no and that the law says drunk women cannot consent, even if you are drunk too.

No one drinks enough to pass out on purpose. You can rarely control who will be at a party especially in college. I don't believe in blaming women but if I had a daughter I would do what I could in advance as well of course. Maybe we should actively teach safe drinking just like we promote safe sex and sex ed. Young men and women shouldn't be sent off to college with zero drinking knowledge where they'll be surrounded by weekend binge drinkers. They should be taught how to pace themselves, what not to mix, they need to eat first and rehydrate etc..

I think it's great that you are teaching your son about consent. Hearing that from you will be powerful I'm sure they'll always remember that.

Teaching safe drinking would be good. I spent a summer studying abroad in Japan as a rising high school senior and witnessed what happens when kids drink unsafely. One evening one of the girls and a couple of the guys got pretty drunk. We all (30 kids or so) were in a dorm together and were all hanging out, though only a few kids were drinking. Next thing we know the girl and one guy are heavily making out and heading for a closet. The four non-drunk girls (including myself) thought this was a bad idea and separated them. The drunk girl was slurring and insisting she wanted to be with him; the drunk guy was threatening us. A couple of other guys intervened at our request and dragged him down the hallway. For the next two hours he kept coming back and pounding on our door and was dragged away, only to return. Meanwhile drunk girl kept telling us how mean we were to not let her go have sex with him. Eventually everyone fell asleep. The next day drunk girl had only vague memories of any of this and was utterly horrified when we told her. She was very relieved and grateful that we didn't let anything happen. Drunk guy never apologized or referred to it.

After that experience I swore I would never let myself get so drunk that I didn't know what was going on. I never wanted to be in that position. And if that meant not getting drunk at all at a party to avoid any possibility of this happening, then that's what I was going to do. And I stuck to it. Probably one of the more formative experiences of my young adult life.

In my experience with friends and family members, girls who get too drunk at parties tend to regret it. It's fun in the moment but blackouts and hazy memory the next day is scary. The question is whether they get assaulted before they stop the pattern. Maybe safe drinking education, like safe sex education, would help people think about this stuff in advance. And that goes for boys too. If the boy is drunk, even assuming no predatory intent on his part, it severely lessens his chances of recognizing that his partner is incapable of consent. And he's going to get blamed. It's just not worth it for anybody.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can understand the sentence. It was basically a hookup at a frat party gone wrong. It doesn't make sense to send one party to prison for years.. There's no way to know when she became unconscious, but it was probably later rather than sooner.

No, IT WAS A RAPE, you idiot

Do you think a woman ever bears any responsibility re staying sober, not trusting drunk strangers, not walking down a street at 2 a.m. alone, etc? We're not doing any favors to perpetuate the myth that women can be and do anything they want and go anywhere they want without being responsible for their own safety to the degree possible. That's beyond naive and truly not very smart.

If I stand naked in the street at 2:00 am it doesn't give anyone the right to rape me.

you're right it doesn't. but would you advise your daughter to do so?

NP here. Safety advice I would give my child is completely irrelevant to whether someone is justified in committing a crime against them or whether the criminal deserves jail time.

I tell my kids to lock the front door. Whether they do, do but forger the deadbolt, or do not for some reason, if someone breaks in and steals their things it is still a crime and still the fault and moral responsibility of the thief.

Absolutely! But making the effort to try to be safe should still be the message.

I agree. One thing that really stands out in a lot of campus rape stories is the alcohol. And that goes for both men and women. It does not absolve men of blame, and it does not mean that women deserve to be assaulted. But when you are drinking enough to black out, you are putting yourself at risk. You can't depend on your friends to save you; they're drinking too. Like the victim here said, this man was looking to assault someone and if it hadn't been her, it would have been another woman. But very likely it would have been a woman who, like she did, had too much too drink. That's what these predators look for or take advantage of when they find it.

The number one thing women can do to protect themselves is not drink to excess, which probably means one drink only. Maybe things have changed but when I went to college in 1998, my parents impressed the following on me: do not go to parties where you don't know anyone; don't go to parties by yourself; don't accept any drink, even water, that's been opened or poured by someone else outside of your sight; don't ever go to a guy's room during a party; don't accept a ride or escort home from any guy you don't know well; don't ever invite a guy you don't know well into your own room.

Now, if you don't follow these rules, do you deserve to be sexually assaulted? Of course not. But why make yourself an easier target? Like the house-breaking example: yes, it is the burglar's fault, but doesn't the victim wish she'd locked her doors? I've read comments by college-age women who say "it's not fair, we should be able to drink as much as men, it's discriminatory to tell us we shouldn't." To which I answer: too bad. Not everything in life is fair. There are a hell of a lot of unfair things in this world, and it's not worth getting assaulted over.

It'so too bad for your little 1998 example that women have shared, on this thread, that they were roofied by men they knew and trusted, that they considered friends. I didn't drink in college, literally ever, so I'm not coming at this from a place of defending alcohol, but alcohol. does. not. matter. It is such a red herring. Rapists will rape. Open the other sexual abuse/rape thread for more stories of stone cold sober women and girls getting assaulted, or tipsy women who were with men they trusted.

I only have (young) sons, so my parental messages have been emphasizing that no is the end and we respect other people's bodies. But it's so fanciful to say to college aged women not to drink a lot as though that is some magic talisman against rape.

[Anonymous]

It's like living in two separate worlds. On one side, rape is rape, alcohol does not matter and is a red herring. If n the other side, drunk people do things they'd never do sober and would regret.

Every rape is identical and only are avoidable by men, women have no agency or responsibility for themselves. Or, facts and circumstances are important and we can all learn from them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can understand the sentence. It was basically a hookup at a frat party gone wrong. It doesn't make sense to send one party to prison for years.. There's no way to know when she became unconscious, but it was probably later rather than sooner.

No, IT WAS A RAPE, you idiot

Do you think a woman ever bears any responsibility re staying sober, not trusting drunk strangers, not walking down a street at 2 a.m. alone, etc? We're not doing any favors to perpetuate the myth that women can be and do anything they want and go anywhere they want without being responsible for their own safety to the degree possible. That's beyond naive and truly not very smart.

If I stand naked in the street at 2:00 am it doesn't give anyone the right to rape me.

you're right it doesn't. but would you advise your daughter to do so?

NP here. Safety advice I would give my child is completely irrelevant to whether someone is justified in committing a crime against them or whether the criminal deserves jail time.

I tell my kids to lock the front door. Whether they do, do but forger the deadbolt, or do not for some reason, if someone breaks in and steals their things it is still a crime and still the fault and moral responsibility of the thief.

Absolutely! But making the effort to try to be safe should still be the message.

I agree. One thing that really stands out in a lot of campus rape stories is the alcohol. And that goes for both men and women. It does not absolve men of blame, and it does not mean that women deserve to be assaulted. But when you are drinking enough to black out, you are putting yourself at risk. You can't depend on your friends to save you; they're drinking too. Like the victim here said, this man was looking to assault someone and if it hadn't been her, it would have been another woman. But very likely it would have been a woman who, like she did, had too much too drink. That's what these predators look for or take advantage of when they find it.

The number one thing women can do to protect themselves is not drink to excess, which probably means one drink only. Maybe things have changed but when I went to college in 1998, my parents impressed the following on me: do not go to parties where you don't know anyone; don't go to parties by yourself; don't accept any drink, even water, that's been opened or poured by someone else outside of your sight; don't ever go to a guy's room during a party; don't accept a ride or escort home from any guy you don't know well; don't ever invite a guy you don't know well into your own room.

Now, if you don't follow these rules, do you deserve to be sexually assaulted? Of course not. But why make yourself an easier target? Like the house-breaking example: yes, it is the burglar's fault, but doesn't the victim wish she'd locked her doors? I've read comments by college-age women who say "it's not fair, we should be able to drink as much as men, it's discriminatory to tell us we shouldn't." To which I answer: too bad. Not everything in life is fair. There are a hell of a lot of unfair things in this world, and it's not worth getting assaulted over.

It'so too bad for your little 1998 example that women have shared, on this thread, that they were roofied by men they knew and trusted, that they considered friends. I didn't drink in college, literally ever, so I'm not coming at this from a place of defending alcohol, but alcohol. does. not. matter. It is such a red herring. Rapists will rape. Open the other sexual abuse/rape thread for more stories of stone cold sober women and girls getting assaulted, or tipsy women who were with men they trusted.

I only have (young) sons, so my parental messages have been emphasizing that no is the end and we respect other people's bodies. But it's so fanciful to say to college aged women not to drink a lot as though that is some magic talisman against rape.

Which is why my parents emphasized not accepting opened drinks. Roofies were known in 1998. This shit's been around a long time. Obviously acquaintance rape, date rape, rape within relationships does happen. A lot. But a lot of "campus date rape" stories focus on assault by strangers at parties.

Nothing is a magic talisman. But not drinking or not drinking to excess does cut down on the odds, at least.

[Anonymous]

Thinking that alcohol doesn't matter is just dumb. Placing responsibility for your own safety onto other drunk people is equally dumb. Has she not passed out it would have been a regular college hook up. Had he not been there she would have passed out anyway and possibly found behind the same dumpster. Drinking is a choice and with choices come consequences. I am having very hard time feeling sorry for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope. Foreign object was dirt, pine needles and other stuff. They pulled it out of her at the hospital. Turner is a weirdo.

Are you serious?

If true, he has issues on multiple fronts. Very sick young man.

No the charge and conviction were for fingers. It was outside and messy, not deliberate, as PP is implying. Stick to what he was actually convicted of.

And you know that because you were there? And you were on the jury, so you know what the jury found?

As the owner of a vagina, I can't imagine how someone gets pine needles in it without them being deliberately placed there. There had to be a lot of force or a very deliberate action. That's not something that just happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking that alcohol doesn't matter is just dumb. Placing responsibility for your own safety onto other drunk people is equally dumb. Has she not passed out it would have been a regular college hook up. Had he not been there she would have passed out anyway and possibly found behind the same dumpster. Drinking is a choice and with choices come consequences. I am having very hard time feeling sorry for her.

I do feel sorry for her. I don't think the natural consequence of drinking is rape. However, it certainly is a potential consequence, and one that should not be ignored.

Compare it to smoking. Many people who smoke get lung cancer. Some people who smoke do not. Some people get lung cancer without ever having smoked. If you smoke and get lung cancer, it doesn't mean you deserved to get lung cancer. It does mean you made a stupid decision that increased your risk. A decision you would have been better off not making.

So it is with drinking at a party. It's just better not to do it. Plenty of people drink at parties and are fine, just like plenty of people smoke and are fine, and plenty of people go running by themselves at 2 am with headphones and are fine. But a hell of a lot of people do these things and are not fine. Do you really want to take the chance that you'll be one of them? Cutting down on alcohol consumption would not eliminate rape and sexual assault, but it would go a long way towards reducing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope. Foreign object was dirt, pine needles and other stuff. They pulled it out of her at the hospital. Turner is a weirdo.

Are you serious?

If true, he has issues on multiple fronts. Very sick young man.

No the charge and conviction were for fingers. It was outside and messy, not deliberate, as PP is implying. Stick to what he was actually convicted of.

And you know that because you were there? And you were on the jury, so you know what the jury found?

As the owner of a vagina, I can't imagine how someone gets pine needles in it without them being deliberately placed there. There had to be a lot of force or a very deliberate action. That's not something that just happens.

I asked somebody that does rape kits and it does, just happen, when having sex outside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking that alcohol doesn't matter is just dumb. Placing responsibility for your own safety onto other drunk people is equally dumb. Has she not passed out it would have been a regular college hook up. Had he not been there she would have passed out anyway and possibly found behind the same dumpster. Drinking is a choice and with choices come consequences. I am having very hard time feeling sorry for her.

I do feel sorry for her. I don't think the natural consequence of drinking is rape. However, it certainly is a potential consequence, and one that should not be ignored.

Compare it to smoking. Many people who smoke get lung cancer. Some people who smoke do not. Some people get lung cancer without ever having smoked. If you smoke and get lung cancer, it doesn't mean you deserved to get lung cancer. It does mean you made a stupid decision that increased your risk. A decision you would have been better off not making.

So it is with drinking at a party. It's just better not to do it. Plenty of people drink at parties and are fine, just like plenty of people smoke and are fine, and plenty of people go running by themselves at 2 am with headphones and are fine. But a hell of a lot of people do these things and are not fine. Do you really want to take the chance that you'll be one of them? Cutting down on alcohol consumption would not eliminate rape and sexual assault, but it would go a long way towards reducing it.

I am fine with that message if it is directed to both men and women. If you only direct it towards women, you are making women solely responsible for preventing their own rapes. Men have to be accountable for changing their behavior, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking that alcohol doesn't matter is just dumb. Placing responsibility for your own safety onto other drunk people is equally dumb. Has she not passed out it would have been a regular college hook up. Had he not been there she would have passed out anyway and possibly found behind the same dumpster. Drinking is a choice and with choices come consequences. I am having very hard time feeling sorry for her.

Of course drinking alcohol matters. But thinking it is the only thing that matters in this case is pretty stupid. Are you saying that if she were just drunk, she would have consented to sexual activities or that she most likely would have been raped by someone else? In which case, the blame is all on her shoulders and none on the boy's?

How about Brock made a choice to drink and sexually molest someone without their consent. Is this a choice that he made that shouldn't have consequences just because the girl was passed out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope. Foreign object was dirt, pine needles and other stuff. They pulled it out of her at the hospital. Turner is a weirdo.

Are you serious?

If true, he has issues on multiple fronts. Very sick young man.

No the charge and conviction were for fingers. It was outside and messy, not deliberate, as PP is implying. Stick to what he was actually convicted of.

And you know that because you were there? And you were on the jury, so you know what the jury found?

As the owner of a vagina, I can't imagine how someone gets pine needles in it without them being deliberately placed there. There had to be a lot of force or a very deliberate action. That's not something that just happens.

I asked somebody that does rape kits and it does, just happen, when having sex outside.

Because there is thrusting when you have sex. It's a good bit of force and it's repetitive.

They weren't having sex, though. PP has been very insistent that they weren't having sex and that she wasn't raped.PP has been insisting that he was just fingering her. If he was fingering her hard enough to shove pine needles in her vagina, he was fisting her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to teach my girls to assume all men are dirtbags (even though most are not), and unless you know EVERYONE you are with in a closed environment, and trust them completely, don't drink to the point of passing out. And I'm going to teach my sons to respect women and that no means no and that the law says drunk women cannot consent, even if you are drunk too.

No one drinks enough to pass out on purpose. You can rarely control who will be at a party especially in college. I don't believe in blaming women but if I had a daughter I would do what I could in advance as well of course. Maybe we should actively teach safe drinking just like we promote safe sex and sex ed. Young men and women shouldn't be sent off to college with zero drinking knowledge where they'll be surrounded by weekend binge drinkers. They should be taught how to pace themselves, what not to mix, they need to eat first and rehydrate etc..

I think it's great that you are teaching your son about consent. Hearing that from you will be powerful I'm sure they'll always remember that.

Teaching safe drinking would be good. I spent a summer studying abroad in Japan as a rising high school senior and witnessed what happens when kids drink unsafely. One evening one of the girls and a couple of the guys got pretty drunk. We all (30 kids or so) were in a dorm together and were all hanging out, though only a few kids were drinking. Next thing we know the girl and one guy are heavily making out and heading for a closet. The four non-drunk girls (including myself) thought this was a bad idea and separated them. The drunk girl was slurring and insisting she wanted to be with him; the drunk guy was threatening us. A couple of other guys intervened at our request and dragged him down the hallway. For the next two hours he kept coming back and pounding on our door and was dragged away, only to return. Meanwhile drunk girl kept telling us how mean we were to not let her go have sex with him. Eventually everyone fell asleep. The next day drunk girl had only vague memories of any of this and was utterly horrified when we told her. She was very relieved and grateful that we didn't let anything happen. Drunk guy never apologized or referred to it.

After that experience I swore I would never let myself get so drunk that I didn't know what was going on. I never wanted to be in that position. And if that meant not getting drunk at all at a party to avoid any possibility of this happening, then that's what I was going to do. And I stuck to it. Probably one of the more formative experiences of my young adult life.

In my experience with friends and family members, girls who get too drunk at parties tend to regret it. It's fun in the moment but blackouts and hazy memory the next day is scary. The question is whether they get assaulted before they stop the pattern. Maybe safe drinking education, like safe sex education, would help people think about this stuff in advance. And that goes for boys too. If the boy is drunk, even assuming no predatory intent on his part, it severely lessens his chances of recognizing that his partner is incapable of consent. And he's going to get blamed. It's just not worth it for anybody.

Great story of taking responsibility, OP. But here's the essential point that you missed. You and your friends, as by-standers, took responsibility for protecting these two from themselves. It's not just a matter of men and women both not drinking themselves silly, it's also people, especially men, having the guts and forethought to intervene in a dicey situation. Thank god those Swedish graduate students were people with such sterling qualities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking that alcohol doesn't matter is just dumb. Placing responsibility for your own safety onto other drunk people is equally dumb. Has she not passed out it would have been a regular college hook up. Had he not been there she would have passed out anyway and possibly found behind the same dumpster. Drinking is a choice and with choices come consequences. I am having very hard time feeling sorry for her.

Of course drinking alcohol matters. But thinking it is the only thing that matters in this case is pretty stupid. Are you saying that if she were just drunk, she would have consented to sexual activities or that she most likely would have been raped by someone else? In which case, the blame is all on her shoulders and none on the boy's?

How about Brock made a choice to drink and sexually molest someone without their consent. Is this a choice that he made that shouldn't have consequences just because the girl was passed out?

I'm not sure about your last sentence. If she had not passed out, there would have been no crime. He would have no decision to make, if she hadn't passed out. It was only after she did that he made his decision to commit a crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope. Foreign object was dirt, pine needles and other stuff. They pulled it out of her at the hospital. Turner is a weirdo.

Are you serious?

If true, he has issues on multiple fronts. Very sick young man.

No the charge and conviction were for fingers. It was outside and messy, not deliberate, as PP is implying. Stick to what he was actually convicted of.

And you know that because you were there? And you were on the jury, so you know what the jury found?

As the owner of a vagina, I can't imagine how someone gets pine needles in it without them being deliberately placed there. There had to be a lot of force or a very deliberate action. That's not something that just happens.

I wasn't there, but I can certainly see it happening if they were laying on a bed of pine needles. He is touching her. Puts his hand on the ground for a second to reposition and some pine needles stick to his hand. He is touching her again. They were sloppy drunk - I doubt he carefully laid a clean blanket down first. They were in her hair too. Think he put those there too?

Guess you have never had sex on the beach. Sand gets everywhere!