University of Notre Dame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who noted that I find ND grads, while very academically accomplished and clearly bright, a little immature compared to other students I recruit. I find the level of defensiveness on this thread somewhat indicative of what I’m saying. It’s this narrowness where they are surprised by anyone who dies not share their values and life experiences.

I have met ND grads later in their careers who don’t strike me this way, but I mostly recruit people straight out of college or an MBA/JD. I think ND grads often require a little seasoning and my recommendation to anyone who goes us to seek out experiences during school or post grad that would offer that— working abroad, doing hands on non profit work, etc. I would not recommend going straight to grad school (though I rarely if ever recommend that).

The point is, it’s a good school with talented students. But it has some limitations due to the narrowness of the population from which it recruits, that many other top schools do not have.

Truly remarkable. A Notre Dame grad quickly jumped in and AGREED with you. Then another, very politely, didn’t. And that constitutes defensiveness? To me it sounds like reasonably stated differences of opinion. You know, like you might expect to hear about your own alma mater if you cared to disclose it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who noted that I find ND grads, while very academically accomplished and clearly bright, a little immature compared to other students I recruit. I find the level of defensiveness on this thread somewhat indicative of what I’m saying. It’s this narrowness where they are surprised by anyone who dies not share their values and life experiences.

I have met ND grads later in their careers who don’t strike me this way, but I mostly recruit people straight out of college or an MBA/JD. I think ND grads often require a little seasoning and my recommendation to anyone who goes us to seek out experiences during school or post grad that would offer that— working abroad, doing hands on non profit work, etc. I would not recommend going straight to grad school (though I rarely if ever recommend that).

The point is, it’s a good school with talented students. But it has some limitations due to the narrowness of the population from which it recruits, that many other top schools do not have.

Truly remarkable. A Notre Dame grad quickly jumped in and AGREED with you. Then another, very politely, didn’t. And that constitutes defensiveness? To me it sounds like reasonably stated differences of opinion. You know, like you might expect to hear about your own alma mater if you cared to disclose it.

DP: The defensiveness is the people who are sure everyone is "bashing" Notre Dame when they criticize it at all. I'm Catholic, have family at ND, and I have repeatedly been lumped in with ND bashers on this forum when I point out its weaknesses (even though I'm also pointing out its strengths--like the PP you're referring too).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ND is a midwest school in an armpit town for Republican Catholics. Gross.

See, you’re just plain wrong. ND probably has the most geographically diverse student body of any school in the country and, as was pointed out earlier, has more Democrats than Republicans. Yes, it does have a lot of Catholics, which I understand can be a turnoff for bigots like you.

I am Catholic, and I grew upnin the regioHe school is also cult-like for football.n so I know what I am talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ND is a midwest school in an armpit town for Republican Catholics. Gross.

See, you’re just plain wrong. ND probably has the most geographically diverse student body of any school in the country and, as was pointed out earlier, has more Democrats than Republicans. Yes, it does have a lot of Catholics, which I understand can be a turnoff for bigots like you.

I am Catholic, and I grew upnin the regioHe school is also cult-like for football.n so I know what I am talking about.

Put down the phone until you sober up is my advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who noted that I find ND grads, while very academically accomplished and clearly bright, a little immature compared to other students I recruit. I find the level of defensiveness on this thread somewhat indicative of what I’m saying. It’s this narrowness where they are surprised by anyone who dies not share their values and life experiences.

I have met ND grads later in their careers who don’t strike me this way, but I mostly recruit people straight out of college or an MBA/JD. I think ND grads often require a little seasoning and my recommendation to anyone who goes us to seek out experiences during school or post grad that would offer that— working abroad, doing hands on non profit work, etc. I would not recommend going straight to grad school (though I rarely if ever recommend that).

The point is, it’s a good school with talented students. But it has some limitations due to the narrowness of the population from which it recruits, that many other top schools do not have.

Truly remarkable. A Notre Dame grad quickly jumped in and AGREED with you. Then another, very politely, didn’t. And that constitutes defensiveness? To me it sounds like reasonably stated differences of opinion. You know, like you might expect to hear about your own alma mater if you cared to disclose it.

Several people responded very quickly, most of whom disagreed even though I specifically said it was a good school with smart, talented students. I was surprised because I literally led with "ND is a great school" and then went on to explain some relatively minor things I have found common to very recent grads. The responses seemed more defensive than was merited for a fairly complimentary post, particularly the person who immediately leapt in to explain that all ND grads are "brilliant" which is overkill and obviously not true -- all schools have a mean, even Harvard and Yale.

I went to well-respected state university for undergrad and would be the first to offer or accept criticism of its shortcomings. I've actually offered those observations directly to the school's administration with whom I'm on good terms because of my position. I think it's important to be measured in praise for any school, and they all have flaws, including mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think ND is a great school academically but my perception, as someone who didn’t go there but does hiring in the DC area and sees a lot of ND grads, is that the school is somewhat insular and there is a degree of immaturity among their graduates as a result. I do think the combination of being in a remote area, having a heavily Catholic student body, and drawing from a somewhat narrow applicant pool, may have a negative impact on this aspect of development. My overall impression is not negative at all, but there have been a number of ND grads that I didn’t feel comfortable hiring right out of school because they seemed unusually immature compared to other applicants. I often got the impression of very accomplished high schoolers, where you think “wow you are going to be great as soon as you get some real life experience!” Of course, there is some of that with all recent college grads but it feels more pronounced with ND grads. Things like study abroad and summer internships don’t seem to matter either… it’s still the impression I get.

For that reason I’d be unlikely to encourage my child to go there. I think college should be at least partially about broadening your horizons and ND seems more like a comfortable, familiar environment for a pretty specific type of student. Very good school though.

I'm one of the ND grad PPs, and I actually think this is a fair assessment to a certain degree, *if* you are conflating maturity with worldliness or cynicism. If the maturity you need in a new grad is showing up on time, doing their work, being comfortable speaking to leaders, etc., then ND students absolutely have that. If you want students who have been able to do hands on real life research or projects, then ND students absolutely have that. But I think it's fair to say that they might be a little naive and less cynical than a lot of college grads. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on the exact job for which you are hiring them.

In other words some of them are not “street-smart”.

I’m a different ND alum who also posted earlier in this thread. I think this is a fair criticism/observation of recent grads and I agree with the alum PP above. A recent ND grad would certainly show up on time, wearing appropriate clothes, and interact appropriately with leaders, but you probably would find quite a few who don’t seem “street smart” or worldly. They catch up, but those years in the ND bubble do seem to turn out that kind of kid (I admit I was one). This alone wouldn’t cause me to discourage others from going there, as most of my class has ended up being very successful, 15 years out, but it’s worth keeping in mind as one of many factors to consider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ND is a midwest school in an armpit town for Republican Catholics. Gross.

See, you’re just plain wrong. ND probably has the most geographically diverse student body of any school in the country and, as was pointed out earlier, has more Democrats than Republicans. Yes, it does have a lot of Catholics, which I understand can be a turnoff for bigots like you.

I am Catholic, and I grew upnin the regioHe school is also cult-like for football.n so I know what I am talking about.

Yea, well, it's pretty obvious from how you write that you didn't go there . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ND is a midwest school in an armpit town for Republican Catholics. Gross.

I bet you consider yourself ''worldly.''

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who noted that I find ND grads, while very academically accomplished and clearly bright, a little immature compared to other students I recruit. I find the level of defensiveness on this thread somewhat indicative of what I’m saying. It’s this narrowness where they are surprised by anyone who dies not share their values and life experiences.

I have met ND grads later in their careers who don’t strike me this way, but I mostly recruit people straight out of college or an MBA/JD. I think ND grads often require a little seasoning and my recommendation to anyone who goes us to seek out experiences during school or post grad that would offer that— working abroad, doing hands on non profit work, etc. I would not recommend going straight to grad school (though I rarely if ever recommend that).

The point is, it’s a good school with talented students. But it has some limitations due to the narrowness of the population from which it recruits, that many other top schools do not have.

Truly remarkable. A Notre Dame grad quickly jumped in and AGREED with you. Then another, very politely, didn’t. And that constitutes defensiveness? To me it sounds like reasonably stated differences of opinion. You know, like you might expect to hear about your own alma mater if you cared to disclose it.

Several people responded very quickly, most of whom disagreed even though I specifically said it was a good school with smart, talented students. I was surprised because I literally led with "ND is a great school" and then went on to explain some relatively minor things I have found common to very recent grads. The responses seemed more defensive than was merited for a fairly complimentary post, particularly the person who immediately leapt in to explain that all ND grads are "brilliant" which is overkill and obviously not true -- all schools have a mean, even Harvard and Yale.

I went to well-respected state university for undergrad and would be the first to offer or accept criticism of its shortcomings. I've actually offered those observations directly to the school's administration with whom I'm on good terms because of my position. I think it's important to be measured in praise for any school, and they all have flaws, including mine.

This is what that person said, word for word:

"Our organization actually seeks out ND grads (along with other top universities). We find the ND grads to be not only brilliant, but the easiest to work with..the least pompous. Just a personal experience."

The opinion expressed -- that the poster's organization finds ND grads to be brilliant, easy to work with, and not pompous -- is just as valid and experience-based as your opinion that ND students are "immature." There's nothing over the top about it at all. You just happen to disagree with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

Oh my goodness ND is full of kids who chose it over Northwestern. I don’t imagine there’s a ton of overlap in people applying to Cornell vs Notre Dame, and probably really depends on what atmosphere the student would like. And I don’t really know much about Rice either. Berkeley is an interesting one… I suspect it depends on in-state vs out of stare. It’s got to be nearly impossible to turn down Berkeley at instate tuition.

ND, more than most schools I think, is what it says it is. If you think you’ll like it there, you will probably love it. If you don’t get it, that’s totally fine. Not the school for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

I don't know...looks like some chose ND to me...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

Well ggodie for you, but your anecdote means nothing. Notre Dame, like virtually every other top school, is full of students who turned down admissions offers from other top schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

I don't know...looks like some chose ND to me...

Parchment, for the 100th time, is not accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok so someone asks for a list. We give them a list. And then they cry foul and start name calling. OK then.

I’m the one who asked for the list. I neither cried foul nor name called. I just disagreed that all the schools on the list are more competitive stats-wise than Notre Dame. Because they’re not. Many may have a lower admit rate than ND’s very low 14 percent, but that’s because ND’s application pool is more self-selective than most of the schools on the list. And we all know that at this level admissions are a total crap shoot. You honestly don’t think there are plenty of ND rejects at Berkeley, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, etc.? In fact, Notre Dame’s current law dean (who came from Stanford) went to Cornell undergrad after Notre Dame rejected him.

I honestly don't know a single person who would choose Notre Dame over Cornell or Northwestern. Berkeley, either, for that matter. I can't comment on Rice because I don't know anyone from there and am not familiar with the school.

I don't know...looks like some chose ND to me...

Parchment, for the 100th time, is not accurate.

DP. Parchment may not be accurate, but it's more telling than some poster's personal opinion based on "everyone she knows."

Notre Dame has many many students who turned down offers from all 27 of the schools on the other PP's list. Harvard included.