Budget Frustration

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:When I read "spouse" not DH, I assumed it is DH writing this, and DW has had enough of being the primary breadwinner but still want the lifestyle.

Has OP since clarified? Not that it matters.

OP here. Yes, this. I’ve tried for almost a decade to boost my income and it’s just not happening. We started both working in similar income fields, but she fell into a fast growing niche and we prioritized her career, which necessitated this location etc.

Kids then came, and now we have two tween boys and just turned 4 daughter. Live in Chevy Chase. I like to think I’m a very egalitarian DH (I’ve always done most of the deep cleaning but she hates my cooking so she tends to cook) but who knows.

I was amused how everyone assumed DH wanted to step back, but as PP says, it shouldn’t matter.

I'm the PP who assumed you were the DH. I think you have to sit down with spreadsheets and show DW the reality of the situation. You can't have it both ways, and she can't say let's focus on my career, let's build a lifestyle based on my career, then after that is established say, Nevermind, I don't want to be the primary breadwinner.

Of course she can step back. But that comes with costs. She has to wrap her head around that (as I believe you are trying to do) and not create a fiction in her head that your family can't cut back. At least not without going into debt.

That said, I would consider the idea that she is pushing back on cutting expenses because deep down she wishes that you had a better career, and you are being too accepting of the "reality" (to you) that you can't make more than you are so cuts and/or selling house are imperative. You both might have different ideas about what "reality" is.

Sure, I think she thinks I could earn more money, but I have no idea how to do that. I have gotten dozens of job offers, none with any salary improvement nor clear path to higher comp. I grew up pretty poor and fell into a govt contracting job which is family friendly and steady. I think I could maybe go into consulting, but that would require much longer hours and travel, which she ALSO had issues with early on my career (I remember before we had kids she was annoyed if I was at work late). So I need to find a job which has high pay but normal hours, so that means a FAANG or finance job most likely, so good luck to me.

Hearken back to those days and remember how to save money. I grew up poor and now make bank and I also don't look at grocery prices and spend like a drunken sailor. But I can (and sometimes do, just for the reminder) stop spending like that on a dime. It's time for you to stop. Stop looking down on YMCA camps. Stop spending 1500/month on food. Stop buying organic and planning three separate big vacations for a family of five. Stop arguing with everyone who points out that your spending cannot continue at this level.
Institute some freaking austerity measures.

You are not reading that it is DW who doesn't want to make the cuts. He is willing, just doesn't know how to get DW on board.

I've read the whole thread, including when everyone thought he was the DW. The position has always been that she doesn't want to move, but he's the one responding to comments. He's the one saying the camps were not "worthwhile" and the food is mostly organic and he doesn't have time to bargain shop for lawn equipment. He has not shown any willingness in direct responses, just a delayed "well how do I get her on board" after the board turned on him. Unless your position is that she's been ghostwriting his responses the whole time, you are the one not reading.

This made me smile because I actually think I recognize you from your responses. That said (a tell for me) I pointed out in one of my preceding responses that I think he feels he can't get a better job, and DW probably feels he isn't trying hard enough. He needs to try harder. And they both together need to come up with a plan for how to move forward in this new paradigm. I think the both need a reality check, and he is getting a healthy dose of that on all fronts here.

I agree they both need a reality check. I think she could probably get a better paying job than a 60% pay cut but is probably burned out and not really trying. I think he could probably get a better paying job but is content with his work/life balance and hasn't really *needed* one while she was making so much money. And I think they can live a very nice life in a suburb with decent public schools with the $250k HHI. They might have to settle for a beach house a few blocks from the beach, but worse things have happened to better people.

Hmm, so as soon as you realize I’m the DH, me getting a better job is suddenly the hot topic. It was discussed and dismissed once over 6 pages when you thought I was the DW. Now you see why I was gender neutral! But I have exhausted almost every avenue to get better jobs, called up colleagues and discussed salary and they just laugh when I say my goal is higher than $200k. My field just doesn’t support it, and switching to a new career at nearly 50 seems dicey. I’m going to try some side huddles but I will he surprised if I can whip up a $100k business working in my evenings after kids are asleep.

I’m sorry I seem pessimistic, but seriously I’ve had so many offers that then sour when I realize how they are low balling me or whatever. Maybe it is me, but I started out confident that it should be easy to beat my contractor role but disappointment has worn me down

No, I suggested many pages ago that she (then a presumptive "he") could do better than a 60% pay cut. And then at least 2 other people did as well, and you never responded to that line of inquiry. On this page, you brought up that you get "dozens" of job offers and that you grew up poor - both statements pointing toward you being worth more than you're making and just not seeing the path toward realizing that money. I'm saying both you and your wife could make more money. $150k plus a W/L balance you're happy with is a great deal, it's why so many people go gov't and stay there. That's not a dig, it's reality. People get comfortable where they are, unless they get ground down by where they are. Your relationship shows both sides. Your DW could make more money but is over it and not trying. You could make more money but don't see why you should need to. But both of you built your finances around her continuing to be highly compensated, so you can either change your lives or find ways to try to keep that HHI.

But here's the thing - you could also NOT make more money. You can live a very good life on $250k just not in your current house and not without knowing what a (non-organic) gallon of milk costs.

Just to point out, again, the emphasis was on the presumed DH to not take the pay cut.

I didn’t respond because I don’t manage my DW career; she says her options are limited and I trust her.

As for the pushback on the spending, we are flying to see her family, that is non negotiable. According to her, travel is vital for the kids and honestly some of the happier times (part of why I want to move is we are not really happy “here”, it’s a poor fit in my opinion, as we are still DCUM poor for the neighborhood). The healthy food is an investment in kids future. I am the hardware and clothing shopper, and yes I tend to buy from Home Depot over freecycle because I have dealt with so much crap that I then had to dispose of. “Nothing more expensive than being cheap”. I mean we rarely buy off Amazon or anything, it’s just we lived in apartment before so have a lot of house stuff we need and not many generous neighbors I’m afraid.

I would love guidance on how to boost my salary. I’ve posted before about and the universal conclusion was to stay in my job as I’m too old to re-invent reliably. I’m not afraid of long hours or travel, it just doesn’t work as long as DW ALSO has long hours, so handling the handoff is tricky. I need to get a job paying more at same time I start working/traveling longer, it can’t be a “put in 4 dues earning years and you can get a promotion” scenario.

If you are in government, do not get a job outside it. You and your dw are not good with money and need the pension/annuity benefits. I didn't even see college expenses on here. I don't blame you for the 1,500 on groceries. That is how much I estimate. The beach abd other fami I t vacations will have to be cut. It isn't bad. We haven't had a vacation since our kids were born and I grew up never going on vacation so I don't miss it anyhow--there is a difference between vacations and giving your kids culture and you can save up for 5 years and take the kids Eurailing or to Angkor Wat rather than eat ice cream on the beach for a week. Also your tweens should be helping clean the house! I know it is hard but make a schedule.

[Anonymous]

NP

I have read through all seven pages.

My rambling thoughts:

I think a salary of $150k is perfectly acceptable, even more so that is comes with family life balance. It also sounds like it allows for no need for before/after school.

I, too, curious as to what are the changes that your spouse is making to go from $250k to $100k. That sounds drastic. Are there no options between? Maybe you could post on the jobs for ideas.

Anecdotal to be sure, but DH and I ended up saving around $160k per child on less than $200k a year - but for two children not three. When we started out, it was more like $100k. However, that is neither here nor there as we did quite a few things differently before our children were tweens.

You can still travel, it just has to be done much more cheaply. If travel is important, then cancel the beach trip. Find AirBnbs and do most of your eating there. Find the cheap things to do in cities. Have more picnics. Plan more. I found that getting cheap airfare was easier - so look where the cheap airfare is and plan your trips around that. You make also be able to do a house exchange for free housing and possibly free car.

If your DW can stand to work at her current job a bit more, live on the new proposed income for six months and save the delta. Then you can see if you can do it and you will have a nest egg at the end.

How much equity is in the house? How much is in 401ks and IRAs? Any pensions?

When did you buy your house? If you are talking about having to still buy furniture and yard stuff, it sounds like you bought it in the last year. Did your older children have to change schools when you moved? Can you go back to living in an apartment?

[Anonymous]

It’s frustrating that we seem to have lost our minds money wise by buying this house and getting this promotion. Back in 2017 we made $300, rented and had saved $400k in cash.

Then we plowed it into this house, and between the endless repairs, furnish it, and pay people to help keep it running (gutters, trees, chimneys, yard, pests) it’s just wiped us out financially and time wise.

I think a big part is DW is depressed from her job, and that stresses me out, and that’s part of our dysfunction and we try to make life easier as a result, which burns money.

[Anonymous]

OP, we make $225k. 2 adults WOH and 2 kids 8 and 10.

PITI $2100 (bought in down market in the hood, now gentrified)
Vacations $3000-6000 (trip with flights to see family once every two or three years, otherwise we do drive vacations and rent houses/apartments for @$225 a night or use credit card points for free hotel, lots of hiking and walking, limit meals out to @$100/day)
Camp $150/week per kid at the Y (you can look into church camp if you're religious)
No cleaner (DH and i split the cleaning yet we're still married lol; our two boys clean the bathrooms as their chore and they surprisingly don't complain)

I can't speak to the general spend, would need to see this broken down to specific categories.

We're able to save a lot for retirement and some for college by keeping housing low. OP, what do you have for retirement and college?

Looks like you will need to forgo the vacations or cut them down, and very carefully examine all the other expenses. And yes, look into moving. If you move further out you will spend more on gas/train, I would not touch the $100k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP, we make $225k. 2 adults WOH and 2 kids 8 and 10.

PITI $2100 (bought in down market in the hood, now gentrified)
Vacations $3000-6000 (trip with flights to see family once every two or three years, otherwise we do drive vacations and rent houses/apartments for @$225 a night or use credit card points for free hotel, lots of hiking and walking, limit meals out to @$100/day)
Camp $150/week per kid at the Y (you can look into church camp if you're religious)
No cleaner (DH and i split the cleaning yet we're still married lol; our two boys clean the bathrooms as their chore and they surprisingly don't complain)

I can't speak to the general spend, would need to see this broken down to specific categories.

We're able to save a lot for retirement and some for college by keeping housing low. OP, what do you have for retirement and college?

Looks like you will need to forgo the vacations or cut them down, and very carefully examine all the other expenses. And yes, look into moving. If you move further out you will spend more on gas/train, I would not touch the $100k.

To clarify, that's $3-6k a year. Two trips total spend. But we've had one year we spent $1500 (1 week rural VRBO) and $8000 (2 weeks in UK). But we saved up specifically for the international trip.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:When I read "spouse" not DH, I assumed it is DH writing this, and DW has had enough of being the primary breadwinner but still want the lifestyle.

Has OP since clarified? Not that it matters.

OP here. Yes, this. I’ve tried for almost a decade to boost my income and it’s just not happening. We started both working in similar income fields, but she fell into a fast growing niche and we prioritized her career, which necessitated this location etc.

Kids then came, and now we have two tween boys and just turned 4 daughter. Live in Chevy Chase. I like to think I’m a very egalitarian DH (I’ve always done most of the deep cleaning but she hates my cooking so she tends to cook) but who knows.

I was amused how everyone assumed DH wanted to step back, but as PP says, it shouldn’t matter.

I'm the PP who assumed you were the DH. I think you have to sit down with spreadsheets and show DW the reality of the situation. You can't have it both ways, and she can't say let's focus on my career, let's build a lifestyle based on my career, then after that is established say, Nevermind, I don't want to be the primary breadwinner.

Of course she can step back. But that comes with costs. She has to wrap her head around that (as I believe you are trying to do) and not create a fiction in her head that your family can't cut back. At least not without going into debt.

That said, I would consider the idea that she is pushing back on cutting expenses because deep down she wishes that you had a better career, and you are being too accepting of the "reality" (to you) that you can't make more than you are so cuts and/or selling house are imperative. You both might have different ideas about what "reality" is.

Sure, I think she thinks I could earn more money, but I have no idea how to do that. I have gotten dozens of job offers, none with any salary improvement nor clear path to higher comp. I grew up pretty poor and fell into a govt contracting job which is family friendly and steady. I think I could maybe go into consulting, but that would require much longer hours and travel, which she ALSO had issues with early on my career (I remember before we had kids she was annoyed if I was at work late). So I need to find a job which has high pay but normal hours, so that means a FAANG or finance job most likely, so good luck to me.

Hearken back to those days and remember how to save money. I grew up poor and now make bank and I also don't look at grocery prices and spend like a drunken sailor. But I can (and sometimes do, just for the reminder) stop spending like that on a dime. It's time for you to stop. Stop looking down on YMCA camps. Stop spending 1500/month on food. Stop buying organic and planning three separate big vacations for a family of five. Stop arguing with everyone who points out that your spending cannot continue at this level.
Institute some freaking austerity measures.

You are not reading that it is DW who doesn't want to make the cuts. He is willing, just doesn't know how to get DW on board.

I've read the whole thread, including when everyone thought he was the DW. The position has always been that she doesn't want to move, but he's the one responding to comments. He's the one saying the camps were not "worthwhile" and the food is mostly organic and he doesn't have time to bargain shop for lawn equipment. He has not shown any willingness in direct responses, just a delayed "well how do I get her on board" after the board turned on him. Unless your position is that she's been ghostwriting his responses the whole time, you are the one not reading.

This made me smile because I actually think I recognize you from your responses. That said (a tell for me) I pointed out in one of my preceding responses that I think he feels he can't get a better job, and DW probably feels he isn't trying hard enough. He needs to try harder. And they both together need to come up with a plan for how to move forward in this new paradigm. I think the both need a reality check, and he is getting a healthy dose of that on all fronts here.

I agree they both need a reality check. I think she could probably get a better paying job than a 60% pay cut but is probably burned out and not really trying. I think he could probably get a better paying job but is content with his work/life balance and hasn't really *needed* one while she was making so much money. And I think they can live a very nice life in a suburb with decent public schools with the $250k HHI. They might have to settle for a beach house a few blocks from the beach, but worse things have happened to better people.

Hmm, so as soon as you realize I’m the DH, me getting a better job is suddenly the hot topic. It was discussed and dismissed once over 6 pages when you thought I was the DW. Now you see why I was gender neutral! But I have exhausted almost every avenue to get better jobs, called up colleagues and discussed salary and they just laugh when I say my goal is higher than $200k. My field just doesn’t support it, and switching to a new career at nearly 50 seems dicey. I’m going to try some side huddles but I will he surprised if I can whip up a $100k business working in my evenings after kids are asleep.

I’m sorry I seem pessimistic, but seriously I’ve had so many offers that then sour when I realize how they are low balling me or whatever. Maybe it is me, but I started out confident that it should be easy to beat my contractor role but disappointment has worn me down

No, I suggested many pages ago that she (then a presumptive "he") could do better than a 60% pay cut. And then at least 2 other people did as well, and you never responded to that line of inquiry. On this page, you brought up that you get "dozens" of job offers and that you grew up poor - both statements pointing toward you being worth more than you're making and just not seeing the path toward realizing that money. I'm saying both you and your wife could make more money. $150k plus a W/L balance you're happy with is a great deal, it's why so many people go gov't and stay there. That's not a dig, it's reality. People get comfortable where they are, unless they get ground down by where they are. Your relationship shows both sides. Your DW could make more money but is over it and not trying. You could make more money but don't see why you should need to. But both of you built your finances around her continuing to be highly compensated, so you can either change your lives or find ways to try to keep that HHI.

But here's the thing - you could also NOT make more money. You can live a very good life on $250k just not in your current house and not without knowing what a (non-organic) gallon of milk costs.

Just to point out, again, the emphasis was on the presumed DH to not take the pay cut.

I didn’t respond because I don’t manage my DW career; she says her options are limited and I trust her.

As for the pushback on the spending, we are flying to see her family, that is non negotiable. According to her, travel is vital for the kids and honestly some of the happier times (part of why I want to move is we are not really happy “here”, it’s a poor fit in my opinion, as we are still DCUM poor for the neighborhood). The healthy food is an investment in kids future. I am the hardware and clothing shopper, and yes I tend to buy from Home Depot over freecycle because I have dealt with so much crap that I then had to dispose of. “Nothing more expensive than being cheap”. I mean we rarely buy off Amazon or anything, it’s just we lived in apartment before so have a lot of house stuff we need and not many generous neighbors I’m afraid.

I would love guidance on how to boost my salary. I’ve posted before about and the universal conclusion was to stay in my job as I’m too old to re-invent reliably. I’m not afraid of long hours or travel, it just doesn’t work as long as DW ALSO has long hours, so handling the handoff is tricky. I need to get a job paying more at same time I start working/traveling longer, it can’t be a “put in 4 dues earning years and you can get a promotion” scenario.

No, the emphasis was on the spouse that could clearly make more money based on what is written in the thread not taking less money. When you say Spouse A is taking a 60% paycut, the evidence is right there in the sentence that they can earn more. When you later say Spouse B fields constant job offers , the evidence has now been presented that they can be making more money. But sure, everything is misandry. Someone saying "both of these people could probably make more money" is picking on men.

[Anonymous]

OP, I would start a new thread on the Jobs board. Explain that you are nearing 50 and would like to increase your income so that DW can scale back her own job.

Give some details about what you do, and the difficulties you've faced ramping up your own career. Ask for suggestions.

You need career counseling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Just to point out, again, the emphasis was on the presumed DH to not take the pay cut.

I didn’t respond because I don’t manage my DW career; she says her options are limited and I trust her.

As for the pushback on the spending, we are flying to see her family, that is non negotiable. According to her, travel is vital for the kids and honestly some of the happier times (part of why I want to move is we are not really happy “here”, it’s a poor fit in my opinion, as we are still DCUM poor for the neighborhood). The healthy food is an investment in kids future. I am the hardware and clothing shopper, and yes I tend to buy from Home Depot over freecycle because I have dealt with so much crap that I then had to dispose of. “Nothing more expensive than being cheap”. I mean we rarely buy off Amazon or anything, it’s just we lived in apartment before so have a lot of house stuff we need and not many generous neighbors I’m afraid.

I would love guidance on how to boost my salary. I’ve posted before about and the universal conclusion was to stay in my job as I’m too old to re-invent reliably. I’m not afraid of long hours or travel, it just doesn’t work as long as DW ALSO has long hours, so handling the handoff is tricky. I need to get a job paying more at same time I start working/traveling longer, it can’t be a “put in 4 dues earning years and you can get a promotion” scenario.

I'm not going to get distracted by the "get a new job" talk - it's fairly ridiculous advice, and no one knows your situation.

Just to recap:

You came here and asked, "let us know if our budget could be tweaked in a way I'm not seeing."
You're looking at about a ~$36,000 shortfall between income and expenses.
There are significant luxuries and outright fat in your budget. Many people suggested ways to economize.
Almost without exception, your response has been (in this subthread and others), "Well, we can't cut *that!*"

It's either trim your budget significantly, or move. Given your refusal to trim the budget, the answer is obvious.

As for convincing your wife, it's just math. Show her the numbers, and if she's at all rational, she'll accept that moving is the only option. If she's not, you have bigger issues that need to be dealt with, and you're in for a rough road.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s frustrating that we seem to have lost our minds money wise by buying this house and getting this promotion. Back in 2017 we made $300, rented and had saved $400k in cash.

Then we plowed it into this house, and between the endless repairs, furnish it, and pay people to help keep it running (gutters, trees, chimneys, yard, pests) it’s just wiped us out financially and time wise.

I think a big part is DW is depressed from her job, and that stresses me out, and that’s part of our dysfunction and we try to make life easier as a result, which burns money.

I agree you over-extended on your house and selling that is probably the answer... but not to return to renting, obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would start a new thread on the Jobs board. Explain that you are nearing 50 and would like to increase your income so that DW can scale back her own job.

Give some details about what you do, and the difficulties you've faced ramping up your own career. Ask for suggestions.

You need career counseling.

Haha, I did that post several months ago. Conclusion was to stay in my job. I’m f’d because I “followed my passion” rather followed the money. So dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s frustrating that we seem to have lost our minds money wise by buying this house and getting this promotion. Back in 2017 we made $300, rented and had saved $400k in cash.

Then we plowed it into this house, and between the endless repairs, furnish it, and pay people to help keep it running (gutters, trees, chimneys, yard, pests) it’s just wiped us out financially and time wise.

I think a big part is DW is depressed from her job, and that stresses me out, and that’s part of our dysfunction and we try to make life easier as a result, which burns money.

I agree you over-extended on your house and selling that is probably the answer... but not to return to renting, obviously.

Well the house was fine when we made current salary, and we only bought this crappy old place to be close to a job we no longer want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s frustrating that we seem to have lost our minds money wise by buying this house and getting this promotion. Back in 2017 we made $300, rented and had saved $400k in cash.

Then we plowed it into this house, and between the endless repairs, furnish it, and pay people to help keep it running (gutters, trees, chimneys, yard, pests) it’s just wiped us out financially and time wise.

I think a big part is DW is depressed from her job, and that stresses me out, and that’s part of our dysfunction and we try to make life easier as a result, which burns money.

I agree you over-extended on your house and selling that is probably the answer... but not to return to renting, obviously.

I disagree- maybe they should return to renting, just rent a house in Silver Spring rather than an apartment; put the $400K in equity in their house in the market?

Or, buy a $500K house in Silver Spring or Rockville and let your wife quit her job outright; save the $1600/mo in childcare towards kids' college funds. Hell, even if you put the $400K into a $750K Rockville or North Potomac house, your mortgage payment can stay around $2000 PITI and your wife can decrease her hours, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s frustrating that we seem to have lost our minds money wise by buying this house and getting this promotion. Back in 2017 we made $300, rented and had saved $400k in cash.

Then we plowed it into this house, and between the endless repairs, furnish it, and pay people to help keep it running (gutters, trees, chimneys, yard, pests) it’s just wiped us out financially and time wise.

I think a big part is DW is depressed from her job, and that stresses me out, and that’s part of our dysfunction and we try to make life easier as a result, which burns money.

I agree you over-extended on your house and selling that is probably the answer... but not to return to renting, obviously.

I disagree- maybe they should return to renting, just rent a house in Silver Spring rather than an apartment; put the $400K in equity in their house in the market?

Or, buy a $500K house in Silver Spring or Rockville and let your wife quit her job outright; save the $1600/mo in childcare towards kids' college funds. Hell, even if you put the $400K into a $750K Rockville or North Potomac house, your mortgage payment can stay around $2000 PITI and your wife can decrease her hours, etc.

Oops, meant to add that either way, you and DW are going to have to reevaluate your budget especially your vacations.

You also haven't mentioned how much you have in retirement. Honestly, I think you need a financial planner to sit down with both of you and really give you the lay of the land.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read all of this but I’m guessing they live in AU park or CCDC or thr like. Most of those houses have basements with outdoor access and a full bath. Not ideal but what about renting out the basement to subside you until one of you brings in more income? You could likely get $2-$3k/month. Also you don’t need all of these enrichment camps. My tweens have been doing all sorts of khan academy type things online this summer and they’re all free. You can also have the tweens watch the 4 year old as needed. Not ideal but a lot less of an inconvenience for them than being pulled from their school and neighborhood at their age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you only bring home $6,200 a month of $150k salary? I make $124,000 and my take-home is around $3,500 each paycheck after paying the full amount to 401k. Do you have super expensive insurance coming out of your paycheck or something?

Same. I make $150k and take home $6,934/month after maxing 401k and paying for our family's healthcare. However, I'm guessing OP may have higher healthcare costs?

Hmm, I just pulled down my bank statement. I suspect I have the higher withholding to make up for spouses higher salary (I do the taxes and I know one year we had a penalty). We max our 401k of course too and I pay the FSA for medicine and daycare. I suspect that will explain, and means that hopefully it will bump up to $6900 at some point.

Healthcare is very normal, thankfully

Make sure you are getting the reimbursements via TASC. For a normal year it's $5,000 for daycare- this year it's like $10,000 or $12,000 depending on your companies cycle.