Budget Frustration

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I may be out of touch, but do people with a 3 to 4-year-old (ending Sept. 2022) in daycare really spend that much money on camps and academic enrichment? You said you need camps for three kids for 8 weeks and that the less expensive camps aren't academic/enriching enough, but isn't one of them in daycare?

Also, regarding your travel budget - I'd suggest trying to do the family visits via points or some such thing rather than doing beach week, family visit, and vacation. Cut either beach week or vacation and do family visit on points.

How do you earn points? We don’t travel for work, and we use a 2% cash back credit card which I think is better than mileage points ($0.013) https://www.valuepenguin.com/travel/how-much-are-airline-miles-worth. Is there some other mechanism I’m missing?

I'm the 225 HHI poster. We have a chase sapphire preferred card. I got it just before we had to oay for Afterschool enrichment for the term so that we could meet the minimum spend (IIRC it was 3k within the first few konths). This got us 60k bonus points. With out regular spending, we have earned up to 130k pts. A nice hotel room in a big city is @ 20k points. You can sign up for a big bonus card, and then have DW sign up for one the next year. Check out websites like The Points Guy for strategies on credit card travel hacking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The 1% a year is a weird number for repairs. They tend to come in big chunks, yes, but not solidly at $15k/year. Right now (literally) I am replacing my furnace, a/c and hot water heater all in for $15k (and we didn’t get the cheapest). If we have to do the roof it will be that….but unless I have something catastrophic those are all the big needed house repairs, yes? I have other things I *want* to do….those are different.

It is a standard recommendation to set aside 1 to 3% of house value for repairs / maintenance and improvements. We aim for 1%. Not that we save this each year. We tend to have that 1% set aside and replenish it when we spend it. We don't spend it all every year but repairs and replacements do come in chunks - coasting alone spending less than 1k for a couple of years, then suddenly need boiler repairs, new programmable thermostat system, new fridge, new siding, roof repair. You wNr a little cushion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I read "spouse" not DH, I assumed it is DH writing this, and DW has had enough of being the primary breadwinner but still want the lifestyle.

Has OP since clarified? Not that it matters.

OP here. Yes, this. I’ve tried for almost a decade to boost my income and it’s just not happening. We started both working in similar income fields, but she fell into a fast growing niche and we prioritized her career, which necessitated this location etc.

Kids then came, and now we have two tween boys and just turned 4 daughter. Live in Chevy Chase. I like to think I’m a very egalitarian DH (I’ve always done most of the deep cleaning but she hates my cooking so she tends to cook) but who knows.

I was amused how everyone assumed DH wanted to step back, but as PP says, it shouldn’t matter.

I'm the PP who assumed you were the DH. I think you have to sit down with spreadsheets and show DW the reality of the situation. You can't have it both ways, and she can't say let's focus on my career, let's build a lifestyle based on my career, then after that is established say, Nevermind, I don't want to be the primary breadwinner.

Of course she can step back. But that comes with costs. She has to wrap her head around that (as I believe you are trying to do) and not create a fiction in her head that your family can't cut back. At least not without going into debt.

That said, I would consider the idea that she is pushing back on cutting expenses because deep down she wishes that you had a better career, and you are being too accepting of the "reality" (to you) that you can't make more than you are so cuts and/or selling house are imperative. You both might have different ideas about what "reality" is.

Sure, I think she thinks I could earn more money, but I have no idea how to do that. I have gotten dozens of job offers, none with any salary improvement nor clear path to higher comp. I grew up pretty poor and fell into a govt contracting job which is family friendly and steady. I think I could maybe go into consulting, but that would require much longer hours and travel, which she ALSO had issues with early on my career (I remember before we had kids she was annoyed if I was at work late). So I need to find a job which has high pay but normal hours, so that means a FAANG or finance job most likely, so good luck to me.

OP, what does your retirement look like? Do you get a pension? That would be worth more possibly than any increase in salary.

I would have you guys live on $250k for one full year while DW keeps her job. That way you can see what it will really be like living on that income. Bank the difference- maybe that could be your vacation fund for the future to mae the drop in income more doable. Or put it towards your mortgage and recast to a lower monthly payment.

And get creative- maybe one of you can work from home a few weeks in the summer so that the teens don't have to be in camp. Maybe family can come visit you for a couple of weeks and watch the kids (I know you said they could not come to you but if you explained that you needed help they might ve more flexible?). Maybe if one of you works remotely part of the week you could drop daycare to fewer days a week. Or you could Airbnb your place during your vacations. Im sure DW and you can come up with lots of ideas.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:When I read "spouse" not DH, I assumed it is DH writing this, and DW has had enough of being the primary breadwinner but still want the lifestyle.

Has OP since clarified? Not that it matters.

OP here. Yes, this. I’ve tried for almost a decade to boost my income and it’s just not happening. We started both working in similar income fields, but she fell into a fast growing niche and we prioritized her career, which necessitated this location etc.

Kids then came, and now we have two tween boys and just turned 4 daughter. Live in Chevy Chase. I like to think I’m a very egalitarian DH (I’ve always done most of the deep cleaning but she hates my cooking so she tends to cook) but who knows.

I was amused how everyone assumed DH wanted to step back, but as PP says, it shouldn’t matter.

I'm the PP who assumed you were the DH. I think you have to sit down with spreadsheets and show DW the reality of the situation. You can't have it both ways, and she can't say let's focus on my career, let's build a lifestyle based on my career, then after that is established say, Nevermind, I don't want to be the primary breadwinner.

Of course she can step back. But that comes with costs. She has to wrap her head around that (as I believe you are trying to do) and not create a fiction in her head that your family can't cut back. At least not without going into debt.

That said, I would consider the idea that she is pushing back on cutting expenses because deep down she wishes that you had a better career, and you are being too accepting of the "reality" (to you) that you can't make more than you are so cuts and/or selling house are imperative. You both might have different ideas about what "reality" is.

Sure, I think she thinks I could earn more money, but I have no idea how to do that. I have gotten dozens of job offers, none with any salary improvement nor clear path to higher comp. I grew up pretty poor and fell into a govt contracting job which is family friendly and steady. I think I could maybe go into consulting, but that would require much longer hours and travel, which she ALSO had issues with early on my career (I remember before we had kids she was annoyed if I was at work late). So I need to find a job which has high pay but normal hours, so that means a FAANG or finance job most likely, so good luck to me.

Hearken back to those days and remember how to save money. I grew up poor and now make bank and I also don't look at grocery prices and spend like a drunken sailor. But I can (and sometimes do, just for the reminder) stop spending like that on a dime. It's time for you to stop. Stop looking down on YMCA camps. Stop spending 1500/month on food. Stop buying organic and planning three separate big vacations for a family of five. Stop arguing with everyone who points out that your spending cannot continue at this level.
Institute some freaking austerity measures.

You are not reading that it is DW who doesn't want to make the cuts. He is willing, just doesn't know how to get DW on board.

I've read the whole thread, including when everyone thought he was the DW. The position has always been that she doesn't want to move, but he's the one responding to comments. He's the one saying the camps were not "worthwhile" and the food is mostly organic and he doesn't have time to bargain shop for lawn equipment. He has not shown any willingness in direct responses, just a delayed "well how do I get her on board" after the board turned on him. Unless your position is that she's been ghostwriting his responses the whole time, you are the one not reading.

This made me smile because I actually think I recognize you from your responses. That said (a tell for me) I pointed out in one of my preceding responses that I think he feels he can't get a better job, and DW probably feels he isn't trying hard enough. He needs to try harder. And they both together need to come up with a plan for how to move forward in this new paradigm. I think the both need a reality check, and he is getting a healthy dose of that on all fronts here.

I agree they both need a reality check. I think she could probably get a better paying job than a 60% pay cut but is probably burned out and not really trying. I think he could probably get a better paying job but is content with his work/life balance and hasn't really *needed* one while she was making so much money. And I think they can live a very nice life in a suburb with decent public schools with the $250k HHI. They might have to settle for a beach house a few blocks from the beach, but worse things have happened to better people.

Hmm, so as soon as you realize I’m the DH, me getting a better job is suddenly the hot topic. It was discussed and dismissed once over 6 pages when you thought I was the DW. Now you see why I was gender neutral! But I have exhausted almost every avenue to get better jobs, called up colleagues and discussed salary and they just laugh when I say my goal is higher than $200k. My field just doesn’t support it, and switching to a new career at nearly 50 seems dicey. I’m going to try some side huddles but I will he surprised if I can whip up a $100k business working in my evenings after kids are asleep.

I’m sorry I seem pessimistic, but seriously I’ve had so many offers that then sour when I realize how they are low balling me or whatever. Maybe it is me, but I started out confident that it should be easy to beat my contractor role but disappointment has worn me down

No, I suggested many pages ago that she (then a presumptive "he") could do better than a 60% pay cut. And then at least 2 other people did as well, and you never responded to that line of inquiry. On this page, you brought up that you get "dozens" of job offers and that you grew up poor - both statements pointing toward you being worth more than you're making and just not seeing the path toward realizing that money. I'm saying both you and your wife could make more money. $150k plus a W/L balance you're happy with is a great deal, it's why so many people go gov't and stay there. That's not a dig, it's reality. People get comfortable where they are, unless they get ground down by where they are. Your relationship shows both sides. Your DW could make more money but is over it and not trying. You could make more money but don't see why you should need to. But both of you built your finances around her continuing to be highly compensated, so you can either change your lives or find ways to try to keep that HHI.

But here's the thing - you could also NOT make more money. You can live a very good life on $250k just not in your current house and not without knowing what a (non-organic) gallon of milk costs.

Just to point out, again, the emphasis was on the presumed DH to not take the pay cut.

I didn’t respond because I don’t manage my DW career; she says her options are limited and I trust her.

As for the pushback on the spending, we are flying to see her family, that is non negotiable. According to her, travel is vital for the kids and honestly some of the happier times (part of why I want to move is we are not really happy “here”, it’s a poor fit in my opinion, as we are still DCUM poor for the neighborhood). The healthy food is an investment in kids future. I am the hardware and clothing shopper, and yes I tend to buy from Home Depot over freecycle because I have dealt with so much crap that I then had to dispose of. “Nothing more expensive than being cheap”. I mean we rarely buy off Amazon or anything, it’s just we lived in apartment before so have a lot of house stuff we need and not many generous neighbors I’m afraid.

I would love guidance on how to boost my salary. I’ve posted before about and the universal conclusion was to stay in my job as I’m too old to re-invent reliably. I’m not afraid of long hours or travel, it just doesn’t work as long as DW ALSO has long hours, so handling the handoff is tricky. I need to get a job paying more at same time I start working/traveling longer, it can’t be a “put in 4 dues earning years and you can get a promotion” scenario.

OP, you should create a separate post asking for career advice.

[Anonymous]

Paying for camp for the child that is in daycare is a waste of money. Not sure how much that saves you.

Your phones are expensive. We pay about $120 all in for four phones with Sprint. I think T-mobile has a comparable plan. I think they have a plan for seniors too so you could have your parents get the account and you guys just pay them for the cost. That's an easy $150 savings with no adjustments.

Maybe your DW should fly to see her family by herself without you and the kids. That would cut down on airfare and then with only one person she could probably stay in their house instead of a hotel.

$600 for shopping needs to be cut. Lawn stuff (mower, weedwacker, hedge trimmer) is a one time purchase and shouldn't be recurring. Similarly, you don't need to furnish your entire house right now. Clearly you have furniture for you and your children so maybe some rooms go unfurnished or you just use what you have from your apartment. You should be able to trim at least $300 here.

Your beach week costs of $415 per month ($5K per year) are ridiculously high. We rented a 3 bedroom condo for about $2K down in Sandbridge VA in June. Make the vacation about the beach and don't go out to eat much or get pizza or whatever to keep those costs down. You should be able to save $250 here.

I think you should get rid of the vacation entirely. You do a week at the beach and a week with your DW's family, that's enough vacation/travel. That will save you $666 per month.

Groceries are really high. You can make healthy meals with fruits/veggies and they don't have to be organic. This should be $1K max which will save you $500.

Is the $400 for medical insurance? If so, shouldn't that already be taken out of your net income you posted?

You have older kids, you don't need cleaners. The tweens should be helping out. $300 saved.

I cut at least $2.1K from your budget and you will save another $1.6K once daycare ends so if you are willing to make those changes you can stay in your house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Paying for camp for the child that is in daycare is a waste of money. Not sure how much that saves you.

Your phones are expensive. We pay about $120 all in for four phones with Sprint. I think T-mobile has a comparable plan. I think they have a plan for seniors too so you could have your parents get the account and you guys just pay them for the cost. That's an easy $150 savings with no adjustments.

Maybe your DW should fly to see her family by herself without you and the kids. That would cut down on airfare and then with only one person she could probably stay in their house instead of a hotel.

$600 for shopping needs to be cut. Lawn stuff (mower, weedwacker, hedge trimmer) is a one time purchase and shouldn't be recurring. Similarly, you don't need to furnish your entire house right now. Clearly you have furniture for you and your children so maybe some rooms go unfurnished or you just use what you have from your apartment. You should be able to trim at least $300 here.

Your beach week costs of $415 per month ($5K per year) are ridiculously high. We rented a 3 bedroom condo for about $2K down in Sandbridge VA in June. Make the vacation about the beach and don't go out to eat much or get pizza or whatever to keep those costs down. You should be able to save $250 here.

I think you should get rid of the vacation entirely. You do a week at the beach and a week with your DW's family, that's enough vacation/travel. That will save you $666 per month.

Groceries are really high. You can make healthy meals with fruits/veggies and they don't have to be organic. This should be $1K max which will save you $500.

Is the $400 for medical insurance? If so, shouldn't that already be taken out of your net income you posted?

You have older kids, you don't need cleaners. The tweens should be helping out. $300 saved.

I cut at least $2.1K from your budget and you will save another $1.6K once daycare ends so if you are willing to make those changes you can stay in your house.

This is great thanks!

Oh, yes camp and daycare will not overlap for #3, that was just a ballpark estimate for camps.

I do expect spending to taper off; we really don’t buy much (we have 11 year old cars, never shop at Amazon, etc) but we had planned to yard sale yard equipment but then pandemic hit and it has been slim pickings but the yard continues growing!

We will try to pare groceries, that will be hard because cheaper groceries likely means driving 20 minutes to H mart or what not.

Beach week also was much higher because of pandemic; years before it was a cheaper condo trip, but I was budgeting the higher cost since beach vacations are in higher demand and this even cheaper options may be expensive. We just want a house with walking or shuttle to beach (parking is always a nightmare when we tried that before).

We will make big vacation every few years, maybe mix in some camping.

Medical costs are for ongoing medical treatments (those are just copays) for chronic condition, not going away.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would start a new thread on the Jobs board. Explain that you are nearing 50 and would like to increase your income so that DW can scale back her own job.

Give some details about what you do, and the difficulties you've faced ramping up your own career. Ask for suggestions.

You need career counseling.

Haha, I did that post several months ago. Conclusion was to stay in my job. I’m f’d because I “followed my passion” rather followed the money. So dumb.

Got it. Then I think you need to certainly come up with a financial plan, cut back on expenses, and potentially sell the house.

[Anonymous]

OP, you might also post on Bogleheads. org. But they will want a detailed breakdown of your expenses, your investments, etc. all in one place.

But I will tell you, the only way out of this is cut expenses. I've read a bunch of the FIRE books and it's not about how much you make, it's about how much you save.

You and DW want a new work life balance. Then your expenses simply have to match that new paradigm. There is no away around it unless someone starts making more money. You keep pushing back. It's as if you don't want this to be true, and someone is going to come up with a magic solution for you. There is no magic solution here. More income or less spending. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

^You have a $400 line item for insurance. I'm not sure what that is because you have another line item of $133 for medical. Presumably the $400 comes out pre-tax so maybe that is being double-counted.

You can stay here for your beach trip for $2.5K all in which would cut your beach week costs in half. There's several other nice places that are options nearby: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/45655124?adults=2&children=3&check_in=2022-06-19&check_out=2022-06-26&federated_search_id=079af321-0f3b-4080-9237-f4b6bc59ac3e&source_impression_id=p3_1627662243_s6tVZsRK%2BPzsENPE&guests=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^You have a $400 line item for insurance. I'm not sure what that is because you have another line item of $133 for medical. Presumably the $400 comes out pre-tax so maybe that is being double-counted.

You can stay here for your beach trip for $2.5K all in which would cut your beach week costs in half. There's several other nice places that are options nearby: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/45655124?adults=2&children=3&check_in=2022-06-19&check_out=2022-06-26&federated_search_id=079af321-0f3b-4080-9237-f4b6bc59ac3e&source_impression_id=p3_1627662243_s6tVZsRK%2BPzsENPE&guests=1

Term life, car, and umbrella insurance.

[Anonymous]

OP, the other piece that is pretty important here is your spouse's decreased income, from $250k to $100k, and you saying "it's her career, I trust her, not my business" while she also doesn't seem to be bought-in on the financial tradeoffs necessary to make that change.

For example, if she could get a job that pays $150 or $175k vs. $100k, that solves A LOT of your problems. I understand that she is burned out and depressed and whatever else... but it's really not a binary, unless she is on board with the lifestyle changes needed to accommodate the lower salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, the other piece that is pretty important here is your spouse's decreased income, from $250k to $100k, and you saying "it's her career, I trust her, not my business" while she also doesn't seem to be bought-in on the financial tradeoffs necessary to make that change.

For example, if she could get a job that pays $150 or $175k vs. $100k, that solves A LOT of your problems. I understand that she is burned out and depressed and whatever else... but it's really not a binary, unless she is on board with the lifestyle changes needed to accommodate the lower salary.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, the other piece that is pretty important here is your spouse's decreased income, from $250k to $100k, and you saying "it's her career, I trust her, not my business" while she also doesn't seem to be bought-in on the financial tradeoffs necessary to make that change.

For example, if she could get a job that pays $150 or $175k vs. $100k, that solves A LOT of your problems. I understand that she is burned out and depressed and whatever else... but it's really not a binary, unless she is on board with the lifestyle changes needed to accommodate the lower salary.

Oh, and I say this as a member of a household that went from $350k in income to $200k (one parent stayed home for a while) to $125k (working parent switched industries) to $215k (second parent went back to work) to $350 again (both parents increased salaries) over about a 10-year period. It is possible to weather these fluctuations, but you have to do (and adjust your budget!) it as a team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:When I read "spouse" not DH, I assumed it is DH writing this, and DW has had enough of being the primary breadwinner but still want the lifestyle.

Has OP since clarified? Not that it matters.

OP here. Yes, this. I’ve tried for almost a decade to boost my income and it’s just not happening. We started both working in similar income fields, but she fell into a fast growing niche and we prioritized her career, which necessitated this location etc.

Kids then came, and now we have two tween boys and just turned 4 daughter. Live in Chevy Chase. I like to think I’m a very egalitarian DH (I’ve always done most of the deep cleaning but she hates my cooking so she tends to cook) but who knows.

I was amused how everyone assumed DH wanted to step back, but as PP says, it shouldn’t matter.

I'm the PP who assumed you were the DH. I think you have to sit down with spreadsheets and show DW the reality of the situation. You can't have it both ways, and she can't say let's focus on my career, let's build a lifestyle based on my career, then after that is established say, Nevermind, I don't want to be the primary breadwinner.

Of course she can step back. But that comes with costs. She has to wrap her head around that (as I believe you are trying to do) and not create a fiction in her head that your family can't cut back. At least not without going into debt.

That said, I would consider the idea that she is pushing back on cutting expenses because deep down she wishes that you had a better career, and you are being too accepting of the "reality" (to you) that you can't make more than you are so cuts and/or selling house are imperative. You both might have different ideas about what "reality" is.

Sure, I think she thinks I could earn more money, but I have no idea how to do that. I have gotten dozens of job offers, none with any salary improvement nor clear path to higher comp. I grew up pretty poor and fell into a govt contracting job which is family friendly and steady. I think I could maybe go into consulting, but that would require much longer hours and travel, which she ALSO had issues with early on my career (I remember before we had kids she was annoyed if I was at work late). So I need to find a job which has high pay but normal hours, so that means a FAANG or finance job most likely, so good luck to me.

Hearken back to those days and remember how to save money. I grew up poor and now make bank and I also don't look at grocery prices and spend like a drunken sailor. But I can (and sometimes do, just for the reminder) stop spending like that on a dime. It's time for you to stop. Stop looking down on YMCA camps. Stop spending 1500/month on food. Stop buying organic and planning three separate big vacations for a family of five. Stop arguing with everyone who points out that your spending cannot continue at this level.
Institute some freaking austerity measures.

You are not reading that it is DW who doesn't want to make the cuts. He is willing, just doesn't know how to get DW on board.

I've read the whole thread, including when everyone thought he was the DW. The position has always been that she doesn't want to move, but he's the one responding to comments. He's the one saying the camps were not "worthwhile" and the food is mostly organic and he doesn't have time to bargain shop for lawn equipment. He has not shown any willingness in direct responses, just a delayed "well how do I get her on board" after the board turned on him. Unless your position is that she's been ghostwriting his responses the whole time, you are the one not reading.

This made me smile because I actually think I recognize you from your responses. That said (a tell for me) I pointed out in one of my preceding responses that I think he feels he can't get a better job, and DW probably feels he isn't trying hard enough. He needs to try harder. And they both together need to come up with a plan for how to move forward in this new paradigm. I think the both need a reality check, and he is getting a healthy dose of that on all fronts here.

NP - and I feel like there is some inherent sexism in this response. OP tells us he has a family friendly job that is stable, and that, with his spouse's previous income, let them live this UMC life. It's the spouse who decided to cut back - without, it sounds, OP's input or them working together to figure out how this will work. Why does OP have to ramp up a career to maintain this high flying lifestyle? Why can't they figure out how to budget for this as a family? Or decide together as a family how to navigate this next stage? I don't think it's fair to put all of this on OP - especially when it reads (to me, maybe I am being too sensitive) like some of this "well you'll just have to get a bigger job, of course" advise is because he is the man.

I'm not saying they are in the ideal position. But OP doesn't seem to want to live as large as the spouse, who decided to step back in work and whose income was necessary to live this large. It seems like the spouse should be willing to make some of the lfiestyle sacrifices that come along with having an easier job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP

I have read through all seven pages.

My rambling thoughts:

I think a salary of $150k is perfectly acceptable, even more so that is comes with family life balance. It also sounds like it allows for no need for before/after school.

I, too, curious as to what are the changes that your spouse is making to go from $250k to $100k. That sounds drastic. Are there no options between? Maybe you could post on the jobs for ideas.

Anecdotal to be sure, but DH and I ended up saving around $160k per child on less than $200k a year - but for two children not three. When we started out, it was more like $100k. However, that is neither here nor there as we did quite a few things differently before our children were tweens.

You can still travel, it just has to be done much more cheaply. If travel is important, then cancel the beach trip. Find AirBnbs and do most of your eating there. Find the cheap things to do in cities. Have more picnics. Plan more. I found that getting cheap airfare was easier - so look where the cheap airfare is and plan your trips around that. You make also be able to do a house exchange for free housing and possibly free car.

If your DW can stand to work at her current job a bit more, live on the new proposed income for six months and save the delta. Then you can see if you can do it and you will have a nest egg at the end.

How much equity is in the house? How much is in 401ks and IRAs? Any pensions?

When did you buy your house? If you are talking about having to still buy furniture and yard stuff, it sounds like you bought it in the last year. Did your older children have to change schools when you moved? Can you go back to living in an apartment?

Could you please do an s/o where you explain the nitty gritty of how you saved $160k a year on a $200k income? We live fairly modestly on a similar income with no kids and I can't imagine how you'd do that (without making some extreme choices, like everyone piling into a trailer on public land)