Help me Edit: Response to Brookings Report

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP but it seems like common sense to me that Brookings is actually critiquing both the system and the actors, and you're interpreting it primarily as a personal attack ("they keep calling us segregationists"). When you try to turn a discussion about systemic racism into a conversation about whether or not you're a nice person, you're centering yourself in an unhelpful and unsympathetic way. I agree with the PPs that say you should leave this alone or at least re-read and edit it when you're not so upset. If you have to respond it should be about the weaknesses inherent in the methodology, the fact that boundaries were redrawn during the survey time, and the less outraged points.

Not to pile on, but I've reported enough overtly racist stuff on the schools forum to know that there's plenty of meat on the report's bones. You've deleted most, though not all, of it, so I'm not sure why you're committed to arguing that racism doesn't play a role in the school choices made by posters here. Stop looking at it as about you and start looking at is about the aggregate of posts. The methodology is flawed but it's not like they're coming out of fantasy land.

Directly from the report, "The conversations on DC Urban Moms illustrate what other research has also shown: When privileged parents choose, they tend to choose segregation." What is this saying if it is not saying that we are segregationists? Their description includes you, by the way. I don't know why I shouldn't take this misrepresentation of a website I own personally. I actually think I should.

As I have said, there are racists here. There are racists everywhere in America. Racism, whether conscious or unconscious, may play a role in school choices. But, I disagree with the report's conclusion that DCUM posters are choosing segregation. You are one of our posters. Did you choose segregation? The aggregate of the posts here are not racist. I don't know how many you have reported, but I guarantee that they are such a small percentage of the posts as to be almost unnoticeable. The report is doing a grave disservice by reducing a complex and nuanced issue to a simple accusation of racism. You know there is more to it than that. Why are you defending such their conclusion?

Many, many conversations on DCUM do illustrate what other research has shown, that privileged parents choose segregation. I am not horrified by this report because it rings true to me based on the comical amount of time I spend here. The conclusion is overbroad, especially since you seem to be reading "the conversations on DCUM" to mean "every single conversation on DCUM," but the defensiveness (and trying to transfer the defensiveness to me?) is also overblown. Their description doesn't include me, because I have not participated in the conversations that support their point other than to debate people who insist that SWW is the bees knees and Banneker is for problem cases with no dads (real thread!).

I think there are methodological problems with the report, and I think you've described some of them persuasively. I also think the overly-personal reactions in other parts of your draft are inappropriate and you may come to regret publishing this while upset. But this is your site, and it's your essay. If that's the direction you want to go, I'm not going to keep arguing against it.

I also think that saying that "privileged parents choose segregation" is the same as saying that they are "segregationists" is a mistake, because you make it an attack on your character rather than a statement about the ways in which everyone participates in a racist system. There are no "pure" choices. You can choose segregation without really meaning to, by not thinking about why things are the way they are, by not interrogating your own sense of what make a "good" school or a "good" neighborhood, by relying on "objective" measures, like test scores, that really aren't.

It's funny to me that parents who consider themselves liberal and progressive on race in many ways can be reliably counted on to get all their hackles up when someone points out that their choice of neighborhood or school for their kids was informed by racism (even unconscious) or entrenches racism, even if that's an unintended consequence. Because you're doing what's "best for your kid," and that trumps every other obligation and consideration, and justifies anything.

yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:+1

Saying, "well, we aren't segregationists because you aren't telling us what the solution is" is a complete non sequitur. The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids to, but it will NEVER happen as long as parents who are participating in and benefiting from the system hear "systemic racism" and immediately bristle because someone is calling them "racist." Some problems don't have easy solutions, but pretending that they aren't problems because of that doesn't help.

Part of it is that we really need to think HARD about what we think makes a "good school," and the ways that race plays into that. There are studies about how people's perception of a school's quality declines when the percentage of black students increases, even if things like test scores stay the same.

Nobody has said anything remotely similar to what you are suggesting. I agree completely that, "The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids". We live in a nation built on racism. Every institution is tarnished by racism. What I have said is that given the options available, parents attempt to make the best choice. That is a normal and natural thing to do. If you believe that the options parents are choosing are racist or are supporting segregation, then it would be very helpful to offer suggestions for what they should do differently. What is the benefit in simply telling someone they are supporting institutionalized racism and leaving it at that? Why not help with a plan of action that could encourage real change?

Literally nobody thinks there is not a problem. The racial dynamics of DC schools are probably the most discussed topic here. Whether it is school choice, school quality, boundaries, funding, renovations, or even opening or closing schools due to the pandemic, race is part of the discussion. We talk about it all the time.

Let's assume the report is correct for a second. What can I, as the owner of the forum, do to stop the forum from promoting segregation? I can't really think of realistic steps I could take. Everything that comes to mind seems absurd. Should I ban discussions of certain schools or discussions about the lottery? Should I remove posts which encourage moving to a school with a higher percentage of White students? Should I close the whole thing down? By participating in this forum are you also contributing to its use in supporting segregation? If pointing out the problem is the first step, what is the second?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i think what a lot of people are missing here is the mindset that you are either making an anti-racist decision, or you are making a racist decision.

Often, what white people consider to be the default or obvious choice is one that supports a racist, segregated country. It doesn't mean you are a member of the KKK, but it is still true. THAT is what the author is trying to get at, but bc it is a Brookings piece she can't be more obvious about driving home that conclusion.

Great point. I think a lot of folks are getting defensive (Jeff included) because they see this as a black or white issue--either the report says we're segregationists/racists, or we're not. Really, this should be seen collectively as shades of grey--many decisions made by white families in American perpetuate systemic racism to some degree. But increased awareness will hopefully lead some folks to be more thoughtful about their role in the system and how their individual behaviors can help to dismantle it (e.g., housing decisions, lottery rankings).

The poster that you say is making a "Great point" is making exactly the type of binary determination that you think is wrong ("you are either making an anti-racist decision, or you are making a racist decision"). My "defensiveness" is primarily due to my frustration that a complex issue is being over-simplified. There are a considerable number of shades of grey. Making this an either/or proposition ignores all of those. Many factors contribute to school choices. It is lazy to decide than any decision other than the one that you support is racist.

PP here. I guess I didn't write clearly enough. I'm saying exactly this--it's not an either/or issue. We, collectively, as highly educated (mostly white, although I myself am not) Americans with choices when it comes to schools--are all complicit in a system that isn't of our own making, but which we participate in and perpetuate. It is like implicit bias--by virtue of being raised in this country, with America's original sin of racism at its very core--we're all influenced by it, whether we are aware or not. So it doesn't make sense to categorize people as "racists" or not, because most people are not blatant racists these days. But the absence of overt racism doesn't mean that systemic racism is absent. As a social scientist, there are many studies that suggest that our decision-making and behaviors are still influenced by beliefs about race. For example, there are the studies of physicians and how patient race affects clinical care. Many of these people will consider themselves good white people, liberal in politics and policy, but not so when it comes to school and housing choices. I have neighbors and colleagues that fit this description.

I'm reminded of MLK's quote about the "white moderate." I hope that this report and other research like it will invite some introspection, even if the methods here are imperfect.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

[Anonymous]

The phrase “sampling bias” comes to mind.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

Saying, "well, we aren't segregationists because you aren't telling us what the solution is" is a complete non sequitur. The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids to, but it will NEVER happen as long as parents who are participating in and benefiting from the system hear "systemic racism" and immediately bristle because someone is calling them "racist." Some problems don't have easy solutions, but pretending that they aren't problems because of that doesn't help.

Part of it is that we really need to think HARD about what we think makes a "good school," and the ways that race plays into that. There are studies about how people's perception of a school's quality declines when the percentage of black students increases, even if things like test scores stay the same.

Nobody has said anything remotely similar to what you are suggesting. I agree completely that, "The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids". We live in a nation built on racism. Every institution is tarnished by racism. What I have said is that given the options available, parents attempt to make the best choice. That is a normal and natural thing to do. If you believe that the options parents are choosing are racist or are supporting segregation, then it would be very helpful to offer suggestions for what they should do differently. What is the benefit in simply telling someone they are supporting institutionalized racism and leaving it at that? Why not help with a plan of action that could encourage real change?

Literally nobody thinks there is not a problem. The racial dynamics of DC schools are probably the most discussed topic here. Whether it is school choice, school quality, boundaries, funding, renovations, or even opening or closing schools due to the pandemic, race is part of the discussion. We talk about it all the time.

Let's assume the report is correct for a second. What can I, as the owner of the forum, do to stop the forum from promoting segregation? I can't really think of realistic steps I could take. Everything that comes to mind seems absurd. Should I ban discussions of certain schools or discussions about the lottery? Should I remove posts which encourage moving to a school with a higher percentage of White students? Should I close the whole thing down? By participating in this forum are you also contributing to its use in supporting segregation? If pointing out the problem is the first step, what is the second?

And usually that choice is affected by assumptions about race, class, and what makes a "good school."

Hopefully if this and other reports like it make some inroads, it will start to impact discussions here. Another idea, just spitballing--maybe you could place a sticky or two with vetted articles about what makes a good school at the top of this forum. I'm sure there are education experts and others in academia/research who can make suggestions. For example, the research that suggests that mother's level of education is the biggest predictor of academic outcomes. That way when people come to this or other fora with certain assumptions about whether their child can get a good education at a low-performing school, for example, they can see those stickies. Perhaps that will start to influence behavior and choices, to the extent that people look at these stickies.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

Saying, "well, we aren't segregationists because you aren't telling us what the solution is" is a complete non sequitur. The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids to, but it will NEVER happen as long as parents who are participating in and benefiting from the system hear "systemic racism" and immediately bristle because someone is calling them "racist." Some problems don't have easy solutions, but pretending that they aren't problems because of that doesn't help.

Part of it is that we really need to think HARD about what we think makes a "good school," and the ways that race plays into that. There are studies about how people's perception of a school's quality declines when the percentage of black students increases, even if things like test scores stay the same.

Nobody has said anything remotely similar to what you are suggesting. I agree completely that, "The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids". We live in a nation built on racism. Every institution is tarnished by racism. What I have said is that given the options available, parents attempt to make the best choice. That is a normal and natural thing to do.

It is treating school as a high-stakes consumer choice, the maximization of which is the only path to success, that is the problem. When we see school that way, it is normal and natural to try to maximize what we personally get out of it (via our children). But that's not the only way to think about school.

I don't think there is much you can do, as the owner of the site, to affect this. The outcomes here are probably not what you intend. But when you put however-many DC-area professional-managerial class folks into one place to talk about school, anonymously, with no prompts or guidance or shared set of referents other than the systems as they stand, currently, this is what you get.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

Jeff, this reaction is white fragility in action. You can do better.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

Jeff, this reaction is white fragility in action. You can do better.

You may be correct that it is white fragility, but it is also reality. If people are interested in hard truths, it is a simple fact that this sort of language alienates your most likely allies. Why accuse people who didn't choose private schools and who didn't flee to the suburbs of supporting segregation? What solution does that help achieve?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

Saying, "well, we aren't segregationists because you aren't telling us what the solution is" is a complete non sequitur. The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids to, but it will NEVER happen as long as parents who are participating in and benefiting from the system hear "systemic racism" and immediately bristle because someone is calling them "racist." Some problems don't have easy solutions, but pretending that they aren't problems because of that doesn't help.

Part of it is that we really need to think HARD about what we think makes a "good school," and the ways that race plays into that. There are studies about how people's perception of a school's quality declines when the percentage of black students increases, even if things like test scores stay the same.

Nobody has said anything remotely similar to what you are suggesting. I agree completely that, "The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids". We live in a nation built on racism. Every institution is tarnished by racism. What I have said is that given the options available, parents attempt to make the best choice. That is a normal and natural thing to do.

It is treating school as a high-stakes consumer choice, the maximization of which is the only path to success, that is the problem. When we see school that way, it is normal and natural to try to maximize what we personally get out of it (via our children). But that's not the only way to think about school.

I don't think there is much you can do, as the owner of the site, to affect this. The outcomes here are probably not what you intend. But when you put however-many DC-area professional-managerial class folks into one place to talk about school, anonymously, with no prompts or guidance or shared set of referents other than the systems as they stand, currently, this is what you get.

I think the bolded is a huge part of it. How parents are defining "best choice" involves what they think counts as "success," how anxious they are about their kids' ability to succeed on those terms, and how they think school plays into that. And competitive/high-stakes parenting is real, and often played as a zero-sum game. It's a perfect recipe for parents making choices that reinforce existing inequalities, because if they can get their kids on the right side of the equation, it's perceived as a benefit (in college admissions, in careers, etc.), and the inequality reduces the competition.

There's also a lot of social sorting that parents are doing via their kids' schools. Private school parents are often quite open about wanting their kids to be in school with "good kids" or "the right peer group" or whatever, but public school parents do it, too. And that clearly has a lot to do with race and class.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

Jeff, this reaction is white fragility in action. You can do better.

You may be correct that it is white fragility, but it is also reality. If people are interested in hard truths, it is a simple fact that this sort of language alienates your most likely allies. Why accuse people who didn't choose private schools and who didn't flee to the suburbs of supporting segregation? What solution does that help achieve?

This sounds like whataboutism, with respect to those who moved to the suburbs or choose private.

Should the authors not even bother to do this sort of research, for fear of how it will land with some defensive people? Hopefully for those that react less defensively, or move from initial defensiveness to actually thinking about whether they can do anything better, there will be a positive impact.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi Jeff, I will include some structural and copy-edits below, in bold. Hope you find them helpful.

Thank you very much for your suggestions.

Great, glad to hear it. I'll add one more suggestion, adding a little bit of wordsmithing:

The key conclusions of the report are obvious and simplistic: that school selection is influenced by real estate prices and neighborhood segregation. The data in the report is hardly required to make this conclusion. In fact, I hardly know anyone familiar with the DCPS system that does not agree with this. And the report hardly advances the discussion about solving these problems.

suggestion:

Moreover, beyond the data and analysis issues, the key conclusions of the report are obvious and simplistic. The report's first and most important conclusion is that school selection is influenced by real estate prices and neighborhood segregation. Yet the data in the report is hardly required to make this conclusion. In fact, I hardly know anyone familiar with the DCPS system that does not agree with this statement. Because the report merely restates a problem that is widely acknowledged, even without discussing the quality of its data the report does not advance our thinking about the problem, its sources, or ways to fix it.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

Jeff, this reaction is white fragility in action. You can do better.

You may be correct that it is white fragility, but it is also reality. If people are interested in hard truths, it is a simple fact that this sort of language alienates your most likely allies. Why accuse people who didn't choose private schools and who didn't flee to the suburbs of supporting segregation? What solution does that help achieve?

This sounds like whataboutism, with respect to those who moved to the suburbs or choose private.

Should the authors not even bother to do this sort of research, for fear of how it will land with some defensive people? Hopefully for those that react less defensively, or move from initial defensiveness to actually thinking about whether they can do anything better, there will be a positive impact.

The authors should have conducted rigorous research that did not rely on a flawed methodology and actually produced evidence that supported their conclusions. If the purpose of the report was to produce clickbait, they have succeeded. If the point of the report was to encourage change within DC public schools, I think it has failed. Nobody will read this report and think, "I need to change my actions." Instead, some people will read it and feel a bit of satisfaction that they stand on a bit of slightly higher moral ground than those making other choices and others will read it and ignore it.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
suggestion:

Moreover, beyond the data and analysis issues, the key conclusions of the report are obvious and simplistic. The report's first and most important conclusion is that school selection is influenced by real estate prices and neighborhood segregation. Yet the data in the report is hardly required to make this conclusion. In fact, I hardly know anyone familiar with the DCPS system that does not agree with this statement. Because the report merely restates a problem that is widely acknowledged, even without discussing the quality of its data the report does not advance our thinking about the problem, its sources, or ways to fix it.

Thanks again. I am finalizing the draft now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

Saying, "well, we aren't segregationists because you aren't telling us what the solution is" is a complete non sequitur. The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids to, but it will NEVER happen as long as parents who are participating in and benefiting from the system hear "systemic racism" and immediately bristle because someone is calling them "racist." Some problems don't have easy solutions, but pretending that they aren't problems because of that doesn't help.

Part of it is that we really need to think HARD about what we think makes a "good school," and the ways that race plays into that. There are studies about how people's perception of a school's quality declines when the percentage of black students increases, even if things like test scores stay the same.

Nobody has said anything remotely similar to what you are suggesting. I agree completely that, "The solution is really complicated, and involves things beyond what schools parents send their kids". We live in a nation built on racism. Every institution is tarnished by racism. What I have said is that given the options available, parents attempt to make the best choice. That is a normal and natural thing to do. If you believe that the options parents are choosing are racist or are supporting segregation, then it would be very helpful to offer suggestions for what they should do differently. What is the benefit in simply telling someone they are supporting institutionalized racism and leaving it at that? Why not help with a plan of action that could encourage real change?

Literally nobody thinks there is not a problem. The racial dynamics of DC schools are probably the most discussed topic here. Whether it is school choice, school quality, boundaries, funding, renovations, or even opening or closing schools due to the pandemic, race is part of the discussion. We talk about it all the time.

Let's assume the report is correct for a second. What can I, as the owner of the forum, do to stop the forum from promoting segregation? I can't really think of realistic steps I could take. Everything that comes to mind seems absurd. Should I ban discussions of certain schools or discussions about the lottery? Should I remove posts which encourage moving to a school with a higher percentage of White students? Should I close the whole thing down? By participating in this forum are you also contributing to its use in supporting segregation? If pointing out the problem is the first step, what is the second?

And usually that choice is affected by assumptions about race, class, and what makes a "good school."

Hopefully if this and other reports like it make some inroads, it will start to impact discussions here. Another idea, just spitballing--maybe you could place a sticky or two with vetted articles about what makes a good school at the top of this forum. I'm sure there are education experts and others in academia/research who can make suggestions. For example, the research that suggests that mother's level of education is the biggest predictor of academic outcomes. That way when people come to this or other fora with certain assumptions about whether their child can get a good education at a low-performing school, for example, they can see those stickies. Perhaps that will start to influence behavior and choices, to the extent that people look at these stickies.

This is a great idea. The best I've seen. I said this upthread, but this all comes down to what people view as a "good" school. Flag resources for the users here to reshape their thinking on that.