Jewish people: how do you view Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Again, it’s not how DILs are treated in the Jewish community; it’s how they’re treated by individual families whether they’re Jewish or not.

This is what I am not sure about. There definitely are cultural differences. It is not just a question of religion
You need to know more. There surely are a lot of variations within families, but that doesn't mean there is no cultural bias

It's 2019. Any community that is not Orthodox has Jews By Choice, and even C shuls have intermarried families with unconverted non-Jewish spouses. We have sephardic/mizrahi families (IE Jews from the mid east and north africa mainly, who never spoke Yiddish or had anything to do with eastern european Jewish culture) we have people raised in very assimilated households who have returned to religions, whose culture is practically anglo-saxon.

Ie while there is of course a big culturat content to Judaism and Jewish identity, almost any Jewish community the OP is likely to encounter will have experience with people from different cultural backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Again, it’s not how DILs are treated in the Jewish community; it’s how they’re treated by individual families whether they’re Jewish or not.

This is what I am not sure about. There definitely are cultural differences. It is not just a question of religion
You need to know more. There surely are a lot of variations within families, but that doesn't mean there is no cultural bias

It's 2019. Any community that is not Orthodox has Jews By Choice, and even C shuls have intermarried families with unconverted non-Jewish spouses. We have sephardic/mizrahi families (IE Jews from the mid east and north africa mainly, who never spoke Yiddish or had anything to do with eastern european Jewish culture) we have people raised in very assimilated households who have returned to religions, whose culture is practically anglo-saxon.

Ie while there is of course a big culturat content to Judaism and Jewish identity, almost any Jewish community the OP is likely to encounter will have experience with people from different cultural backgrounds.

To clarify, most Orthodox communities have at least some Jews by Choice as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A pre-nup regarding how imaginary children who do not exist will be raised is bizarre
That is not what they would ask a Jewish bride
This already indicates that they do not even trust you to raise your own kids, if you even have them

Its kind of a standard question to ask about a mixed marriage, though IMO it not appropriate to ask of a Jew by Choice. They are Jewish, of course they will raise their kids as Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

TBH, I see a LOT of red flags here, OP. The whole process is very unbalanced, skewing in favor of what the fiance wants. Where is your daughter's identity in all of this process? Why does the MIL think she has the right to express displeasure at all? Also, a pre-nup dictating how the children will be raised is not legally binding. It sounds like the fiance is extremely beholden to his family, and is expecting his wife to have a similar lack of boundaries. The part about wanting to have a large family is extremely worrying too. They're both in medical school, I think you said? So is your daughter going to be expected to quit working to care for said large family?

Same. I’m going to guess that bride and groom are not particularly religious, and that this is a cultural thing. Whatever the case, though, she’s being asked to suppress her own identify.

Perhaps they should just live together and not marry
Marriage will ruin everything

Man seems shellfish. An agreement should benefit both sides

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

TBH, I see a LOT of red flags here, OP. The whole process is very unbalanced, skewing in favor of what the fiance wants. Where is your daughter's identity in all of this process? Why does the MIL think she has the right to express displeasure at all? Also, a pre-nup dictating how the children will be raised is not legally binding. It sounds like the fiance is extremely beholden to his family, and is expecting his wife to have a similar lack of boundaries. The part about wanting to have a large family is extremely worrying too. They're both in medical school, I think you said? So is your daughter going to be expected to quit working to care for said large family?

Same. I’m going to guess that bride and groom are not particularly religious, and that this is a cultural thing. Whatever the case, though, she’s being asked to suppress her own identify.

Perhaps they should just live together and not marry
Marriage will ruin everything

Man seems shellfish. An agreement should benefit both sides

Well if he is shellfish then he shouldn't ask his bride to convert, as shellfish are treyf.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

TBH, I see a LOT of red flags here, OP. The whole process is very unbalanced, skewing in favor of what the fiance wants. Where is your daughter's identity in all of this process? Why does the MIL think she has the right to express displeasure at all? Also, a pre-nup dictating how the children will be raised is not legally binding. It sounds like the fiance is extremely beholden to his family, and is expecting his wife to have a similar lack of boundaries. The part about wanting to have a large family is extremely worrying too. They're both in medical school, I think you said? So is your daughter going to be expected to quit working to care for said large family?

Same. I’m going to guess that bride and groom are not particularly religious, and that this is a cultural thing. Whatever the case, though, she’s being asked to suppress her own identify.

Perhaps they should just live together and not marry
Marriage will ruin everything

Man seems shellfish. An agreement should benefit both sides

Shellfish isn't allowed in judiasm though

[Anonymous]

I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

The relative importance of a loss of one adherent to a particular faith is not the issue here, nor does it justify asking someone to give up her identity.

Yes, she’s saying she’s not going to be a Christian, and she’s an adult. But she’s in love, and this pressure seems to be the price for her love.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

Not a dumb question. A lot of my college friends married Jewish men. Most converted. Even those who didn’t convert promised to raise the kids Jewish or secularly Jewishy (no Christian baptism, no Christmas or Easter). There have been some divorces. Haven’t seen any reversals on the kids. The only family I know that had kids revert had transracially adopted children who left Judaism as teens or twenty-something for the religion they were born into or had a birth culture connection to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

I am sorry for your experience. Of course, it is both not universal (at least two movements Reform at Jewish secular humanist) consider your children Jewish - and not unique (many Orthodox sects do not view Conservative Judaism as a halakhic movement. We should absolutely do more to accept intermarriage and encourage conversion. Of course, it is fine for synagogues to take a position that children in their religious schools should be being raised Jewish. I think Catholics so the same thing.

[Anonymous]

We Jewish people have a secret conference every year to make sure that we all think the same thing about Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

I am sorry for your experience. Of course, it is both not universal (at least two movements Reform at Jewish secular humanist) consider your children Jewish - and not unique (many Orthodox sects do not view Conservative Judaism as a halakhic movement. We should absolutely do more to accept intermarriage and encourage conversion. Of course, it is fine for synagogues to take a position that children in their religious schools should be being raised Jewish. I think Catholics so the same thing.

I waNt to be clear that the first poster here, who thinks she speaks for all Jews, is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We Jewish people have a secret conference every year to make sure that we all think the same thing about Christianity.

Lol. At least you’re back on topic!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

according to traditional Jewish law, which determines Jewish status for Orthodox and Conservative Jews, your child is NOT Jewish. Within Reform, and to a lesser degree Conservative, we have had extensive discussion of the impact of different approaches to intermarriage and which are better or worse for increasing the number of children raised as Jews.

Your position is understandable.

But as a matter of numbers, the Jewish movement that is growing fastest is Orthodoxy. Its not at all clear that altering Jewish law for the purpose of making unconverted intermarried couples more likely to raise their kids as Jewish is actually a winning strategy.