What is Middle Class....Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Actually, we have 2 paid for Hondas (one 12 years old and one 3 years old) a 450k 15 year mortgage and have only flown first class on mileage (I won't pay for it). No debt outside the mortgage and no kids either. Still solidly in the middle class for this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

Yep. We splurge on one of those meal boxes 3 days a week ($240/mo) but the rest of the days are pretty modest. Pasta and a salad, burgers and hot dogs on the grill, homemade mac and cheese, shepherds pie, that sort of thing. We'll spend about $100-$200 a week at the grocery store including wine and beer. We get takeout or delivery 2 or 3 times a month, again modest stuff like pizza or thai, probably $75-$100 a month total. We don't eat out terribly often but when we do it's low to mid priced but good food. Places like Zenebech Injera (RIP) on the lower end with places like Toki Underground in the middle and somewhere like Bindaas on the higher end for us. We'll splurge on a nicer place like Rasika 2 or 3 times a year. We probably spend about $150-$200 a month eating out.

Clothes I spend very, very little on. I bought 3 pairs of pants for $100 this month and that was the first time I bought pants in 2 years. I'll buy a couple dress shirts a year for maybe $50 each to replace ones that wear out. I don't have to dress up for work much so I have been rocking the same 4 suits (around $1000 total: 1 cheapo Jos. A Bank, 1 nicer Suitsupply, 2 hand me downs from my uncle I got tailored to fit me) for the past 6 or 7 years and they all still have plenty of life left in them. Non-work wear are jeans and t shirts - $50 every other year for a new pair of jeans, $50 a year or so to replace t shirts that get too many holes in them. My wife spends more but certainly nothing extravagant. Probably $2,000 a year.

The rest is all miscellaneous stuff that isn't very expensive. Movie tickets, video games, (I usually stay a generation behind so I can pick up used titles for $10 or less) the occasional concert or festival. We have very simple tastes, so our weeknights are spent reading or watching movies. Our weekends are spent gardening, taking hikes with our dog, and hanging out with friends. (burgers and beer in the back yard, karaoke at dive bars, that sort of thing)

Vacations are our one big expense really. We usually take one big vacation a year for a week or so and one or two long weekends. For long weekends we will rent an airbnb nearby (Ocean city, West Virginia, etc.) with several friends and split costs for food and booze, which usually ends up being less than $200 a person for the long weekend. For our big trips we keep it fun but low key. Right now we are planning a trip to Prague which will probably run us less than $3,000-$4,000 total. ($2,000 for the flights, $500 for an airbnb in the heart of the city for the week. I'm not sure exactly how much to budget for food and transit, but according to guides a beer costs about 50 cents in USD there, so not much!)

It's not a fancy life, but it's the life we like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

I am a previous poster -- making 105k. One parent, one child. So no we don't have four people. But we do have a nice townhouse in an area with good schools. And we take vacations. College is going to have to be local and public. But that is still within the realm of "middle class".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the list of why this thread exists:


1) If YOU, random DCUM reader, find it hard to buy a house in DC these days on 100k (check Zillow and see for yourself), then that means OP, who only makes 100k, is poor.

2) OP can't stand the thought of being lumped in with "poor" people.


Hence the endless posting about how she can't *believe* how people here consider 100k poor. This is a repeat poster who constantly harps on this one issue.

100k isn't poor and yes we bought a townhouse here (NP with a HHI of around 105K). I don't think we are poor. Middle class certainly.

Thank you. I'm the OP whom the troll keeps teasing about being poor - and can almost qualify for welfare - since I only earn $100,000. When I've pointed out that a salary like that is above average for a college-level professional (yes, here in DC), she goes off, calling me an elderly moron. (I'm in my 50s.)

I think the problem is that she can't manage on $200,000 (maybe she's even the same repeat poster complaining she can only afford a shitshack), so the only way she can reconcile that is to convince herself that people making $105,000 HHI income such as yourself (or $100k individual, such as myself) are low class and poor. How else could people like us live nicely if she is "struggling" on $200,000?

And yet, she misses the point. Plenty of professionals earn $60,000 or $70,000 - and the average HHI income nationally is $54,000. How do you think average people feel when they hear how $350k isn't really enough to live the way they want, or $200,000 is a hardship? We are alienating middle-class voters with this snobby attitude, and that is the point of the thread.

Finally, for my little nemesis troll, I am not poor and never have been. Upper-middle class from childhood....dragged to Kennedy Center operas and swimming at the country club. I've continued with an upper-middle class income throughout adulthood, and have lived very comfortably. (And this will be the last time I address you directly. You really do need to grow up.)

Which means no need for you to save aggressively for your retirement, as I'm sure you'll be inheriting real estate + a nice chunk of change in the future.

That's not true. I have no idea if my parents will bleed through their own retirement savings in a nursing home, so I've been saving diligently for my own retirement for my entire life. (As far as real estate, not much there....just their house, which also could "go" if end-of-life care is expensive.) So, on my "poor" salary of $100,000, I've managed to max out my 401K every year, and now have enough to retire comfortably (in a few years).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

NP here and I can't even imagine spending $3K per month on leisure purchases on "just one of my cards."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

NP here and I can't even imagine spending $3K per month on leisure purchases on "just one of my cards."

agreed -- 3k is our vacation budget for the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

So pardon if my numbers are not completely accurate, but I plugged a $350K salary into ADP's take home pay calculator, and assuming VA residency, exemptions for 2 kids, and maxing 401K's for two people, $350K will result in net pay of $16,577 a month. So from that you spend:

3-4 bedroom house in a safe area with good schools: $800K or around $5000 a month when including taxes/insurance

2 reliable (but not ultra luxury - this is middle class we're talking about) cars: ~$1,000 a month

college fund (assuming a $400K goal with 18 years of savings @ 4% growth): $1,250 a month

Groceries: $2,000 a month

Health Insurance: (assuming someone with a $350k job gets a health insurance option at least as good as a federal employee) $568/mo

Clothing: $1,000

Misc. expenses: $1,000

We're still at nearly $5,000 a month in net pay. I'm not sure how many more expenses we can tack on, but that leaves this family $57,108 for two "moderate" vacations and a trip to Europe. I don't know what your definition of "struggling" is, but that's not mine!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

NP here and I can't even imagine spending $3K per month on leisure purchases on "just one of my cards."

Yes, he is the spender and I am the saver of the family. It is a lot. However, we have no mortgage and our largest fixed expense is $900 a month for real estate taxes, so we can afford it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP. That's interesting, except you left off the description of proletariat. I assume that would be lower-middle class, or even working class. Sounds like an interesting book.

Fussell lays out groupings that are basically Top, Center, and Bottom.

The Top classes are the Top Out-of-Sight, the Upper, and the Upper-Middle.

The Center classes are the Middle, the High Proletarian, the Mid Proletarian, and the Low Proletarian.

The Bottom classes are the Destitute, and the Bottom Out-of-Sight.

The stereotypical middle-class job is a white-collar, 40-hour-a-week office job. Middles are more likely to feel enslaved by their boss and their company, and would like to move up to the upper middle by sending their kids to good colleges, or through marriage.

High proles are typically found in the skilled trades--surveyors, plumbers, auto mechanics, and such. Their income often exceeds that of the middle class.

Mid-prole jobs don't carry the status of the high proles, but are still a notch above minimum wage--driving a forklift in a factory might be a good example. Note that some high proles may have incomes over $200k. An example would be the longshoremen at the Port of Long Beach.

Low proles can usually be found in the minimum wage jobs. Examples would be crew members at fast food chains.

Here's a fun quiz that Fussell had in his book:

http://washingtonmonthly.com/2012/05/25/whats-your-social-class/

Fun quiz. I grew up with art, books, and other old stuff, strongly dislike having it in the house. Nothing is uglier than an Oriental rug. I don't like photos in frames. I like white walls, floor to ceiling windows with no curtains (even in the bedrooms). I got high proletariat, which is correct. Sometimes income has little to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

NP here and I can't even imagine spending $3K per month on leisure purchases on "just one of my cards."

agreed -- 3k is our vacation budget for the year.

Do you and your spouse have a combined total of 14 years of formal education post high school? And have each of you worked full time + continuously for more than 25 years? I'd guess not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

Yes....my family earns only $400,000 and we cannot afford a full-time housekeeper AND a nanny, so we have to go with a day maid only two times a week. Why won't middle America sympathize with our plight?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
80k is tough to live on in DC metro area if you have a family and want to buy. It's a great HHI for somewhere more rural, but here, it's peanuts. Interesting you think that this "teacher" took that comment as a slight instead of, say, thinking to herself, "you know, teachers ARE underpaid around here." You know, because everyone knows teachers tend to be underpaid.

But OP's point is that statistics bear out that a lot of/most people *are* living on that amount. And they can't all be unicorn outliers who inherited a house or whatever. A few years ago, I worked with a GS-9 who was supporting a wife and kid on his income. I wouldn't want to do it, but a lot of people do it.

I agree with OP that it's to our peril to pretend that $100K is barely scraping by...even if it means that housing is out of reach in some cities.

I'm OP. Yes, exactly....thank you. When people bemoan an individual earning $100k as unsuccessful career-wise or exclaim how their income of $430k leaves no room for "extras" (both of which I've seen on DCUM), it makes those with incomes that are truly average frustrated and ignored. (This matter of not being able to afford a house in a major city on a $150k family income is irrelevant. They are still making 3x what the average famiy is, and it comes across as being insensitive - at best - to the average working American.)

Democrats are really good with identifying with the truly lower-income and advocate for all sorts of public assistance programs. For the most part, they have those votes. Where they lose out is with the lower-middle and working class (say, HH incomes of $40,000 to $80,000) where the bulk of voters fall. So when a Democrat makes a comment about "how does a person live on $80,000?" to someone whom he knows nothing about (certainly not their salary!), he is showing the same tone-deafness that cost votes at the polls.

Some of you get this, but some still do not. That scares me for the next election.

I don't get statements like this. Republicans never say these things?

Nope. Sounds like you've never met a Republican, but I'm in politics and most of the Republicans I know are from middle-class or working class backgrounds. The liberals are all the Ivy League trust fund babies. And as others have pointed out, it's starting to show up at the ballot box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

So pardon if my numbers are not completely accurate, but I plugged a $350K salary into ADP's take home pay calculator, and assuming VA residency, exemptions for 2 kids, and maxing 401K's for two people, $350K will result in net pay of $16,577 a month. So from that you spend:

3-4 bedroom house in a safe area with good schools: $800K or around $5000 a month when including taxes/insurance

2 reliable (but not ultra luxury - this is middle class we're talking about) cars: ~$1,000 a month

college fund (assuming a $400K goal with 18 years of savings @ 4% growth): $1,250 a month

Groceries: $2,000 a month

Health Insurance: (assuming someone with a $350k job gets a health insurance option at least as good as a federal employee) $568/mo

Clothing: $1,000

Misc. expenses: $1,000

We're still at nearly $5,000 a month in net pay. I'm not sure how many more expenses we can tack on, but that leaves this family $57,108 for two "moderate" vacations and a trip to Europe. I don't know what your definition of "struggling" is, but that's not mine!

Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

Come on. You're an idiot or a troll.

We have HHI $365K and we're upper class.

-$1million house
-international travel yearly with 3 kids
-AND we max 2 401Ks yearly plus save about $50K more.

On no planet is $350K "middle class"

Do you fly first class?

i realize you're probably being sarcastic in response to previous poster.

But yes, we could afford it if that was a priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

So pardon if my numbers are not completely accurate, but I plugged a $350K salary into ADP's take home pay calculator, and assuming VA residency, exemptions for 2 kids, and maxing 401K's for two people, $350K will result in net pay of $16,577 a month. So from that you spend:

3-4 bedroom house in a safe area with good schools: $800K or around $5000 a month when including taxes/insurance

2 reliable (but not ultra luxury - this is middle class we're talking about) cars: ~$1,000 a month

college fund (assuming a $400K goal with 18 years of savings @ 4% growth): $1,250 a month

Groceries: $2,000 a month

Health Insurance: (assuming someone with a $350k job gets a health insurance option at least as good as a federal employee) $568/mo

Clothing: $1,000

Misc. expenses: $1,000

We're still at nearly $5,000 a month in net pay. I'm not sure how many more expenses we can tack on, but that leaves this family $57,108 for two "moderate" vacations and a trip to Europe. I don't know what your definition of "struggling" is, but that's not mine!

pp is crazy. This is approximately our income, and we have a million dollar mortgage, belong to the Country club, have 3 newish cars that we paid cash for, and just got back from a nice overseas trip (with 2 domestic vacations planned for this summer). And our retirement and college funds are fully funded. Oh, and a kid in private school. I honestly can't think where these people are spending their money.