What is Middle Class....Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

How much do you make/ year?

Just shy of $140K HHI. I'm the guy with the modest house and car back on page 4.

I won't lie, if someone offered me $350K to do what I do now (or at least to have the same hours and stress level I have now) I'd take it in a heartbeat, but my lifestyle wouldn't change too much. I'd buy a little bungalow or rambler somewhere near rock creek, drink nicer beer, put more towards my retirement, and give a lot more to charity, but that's about it. I'd probably go to Europe once in a while too. First class of course, since I'd be able to afford it!

Are you married and do you have kids?

Yes I'm married and no I don't have or plan on having kids.

So you have no idea how much it costs to run a household with kids. And I do believe you would be fine in your little bungalow and buying first class tickets to Europe, if, assuming, you could ever afford to!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If you're pulling in $200K but live in a McMansion with no equity and a massive ARM, leverage yourself to your eyeballs to take extravagant vacations, and lease 7-series' for each of your kids, and losing your job means you lose all of that the next month the bills are due, you're working class.

lol.. nobody making 200k is doing any of that stuff. 200k = getting by, no private school, shopping at Aldi or shoppers, driving Hondas and living in a 1800sf shitshack with a tiny lot and a carport. To do the stuff you are talking about would be at least 400-500k or more if you are really leasing 7 series for your kids. That's probably actually getting to $1M.

New poster here. See I don't understand this, how could 200K be getting by? What you described is how my family of 4 lived but my parents barely had a HHI of 60K. I also lived in the NYC metro area, so COL is higher than DC. Had I grown up on 200k life would have been SO good and I would still be in the NYC area.

If you're just getting by on 200k in this area then something is wrong with your day-to-day expenses or you have crazy debt of some kind. I can see where the OP is coming from.

Agree. An income of $200,000 leaves you with close to $15,000 a month after taxes. A month! In what world does that translate into "just getting by"?

Really? Our net income is about $19,000 per month, and our gross is $480,000.

Yup, $300k and our net income is about $15,000 a month after taxes and 401k's. Not sure where people are getting their numbers, but most of them posting these numbers are making $100-150k, so they're just guestimating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You people are completely missing the point!! You keep describing middle class in terms of lifestyle instead of demographics.

Middle class means *middle*, i.e. the middle cross-section of America. In the past, this middle cross section could afford the stability of a house, a car, and food to eat with maybe a driving vacation once or twice a year. As everyone complaining that they are barely scraping by on $200K already knows, a truly "middle of the pack" income is nowhere near sufficient in most of the country to afford these things anymore. That's why voters are angry. That's why they are voting for anyone who promises a change. When you complain about how hard your life is at $200K/yr instead trying to understand how much harder it is at $60K (again, what most households are getting), you lose any credibility at being able to help or care about the issues of a person earning $60K.

I mean, that's fine if you are not interested in politics or even just bridging community divides, but otherwise you're fighting a losing battle if you want to convince people to share your vision for the future.

But why does a household earning $60K a year think this income level in 2017 should give them the same lifestyle it gave their parents 30 years ago? Society isn't going to get you to a stable financial situation; you need to increase your own earning power. No politician of any party can turn back the clock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Sorry, I generally agree with OP, but no, there's no way someone on a 350k income is taking first class trips to Europe unless they have family money or something. Or just spending everything coming in. It's a comfortable lifestyle, sure, but not luxury.

Even maxing your 401K, $350K is about $16,500 in monthly net income.

An $800,000 mortgage ($1M - 20% down) with taxes and insurance is around $5,000/month. Loans on 2 $70K cars would be $3,000/mo. That leaves them $8,000 a month every month, or $96,000 a year after living and car expenses. Even assuming their household expenses are astronomical, you could easily fly to Europe first class on that income. A quick Expedia search shows a 10 day trip to Paris with 1st class flights and a 5 star hotel clocking in at $5,700 per person: https://www.expedia.com/Hotel-Search?packageType=fh#packageType=fh&c=94a94187-9d41-47df-a55f-57afaaea45bc&ttla=PAR&ftla=WAS&origin=Washington,+DC,+United+States+(WAS-All+Airports)&destination=Paris+(and+vicinity)&startDate=8/7/2017&endDate=8/16/2017&checkInDate=8/7/2017&checkOutDate=8/16/2017&adults=2&children=1_10,1_13&infantsInSeats=0&cabinClass=f®ionId=179898&star=50&sort=recommended&rfrr=PKG.FH.HSR.Refine.Destination

Assuming a family of 4, that entire trip leaves you $73,200 to run your house for the year. If you can't run a household on $6,100 a month after your housing and car expenses have already been paid for, you need to reexamine your life.

I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

You think the pp is mean and angry for pointing out some basic math for living on an income of 350k? I think most people are baffled that ppl with the 350k HHI income can't get it together to actually live a good life. I mean really, where is all that money going if it isn't a luxury vacations or whatever else?

Thank you, that is definitely what I was going for. I was not trying to be mean, though I was trying to point out how ridiculous that statement was.

I really am baffled. Personally I don't need a million dollar house or two $70K car loans, but even assuming I did, I have literally no idea what I would do with the $8,000 a month left over. Right now my wife and I spend about $1,600 a month on household expenses. That includes all of our food, entertainment, gadgets, bar tabs, etc. and it provides everything I really want in my life. I cannot fathom what I would do with the remaining $6,400 besides give it to charity. I guess I could invest it but that would just compound my problem of having more money than I can spend. What's the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Sorry, I generally agree with OP, but no, there's no way someone on a 350k income is taking first class trips to Europe unless they have family money or something. Or just spending everything coming in. It's a comfortable lifestyle, sure, but not luxury.

Even maxing your 401K, $350K is about $16,500 in monthly net income.

An $800,000 mortgage ($1M - 20% down) with taxes and insurance is around $5,000/month. Loans on 2 $70K cars would be $3,000/mo. That leaves them $8,000 a month every month, or $96,000 a year after living and car expenses. Even assuming their household expenses are astronomical, you could easily fly to Europe first class on that income. A quick Expedia search shows a 10 day trip to Paris with 1st class flights and a 5 star hotel clocking in at $5,700 per person: https://www.expedia.com/Hotel-Search?packageType=fh#packageType=fh&c=94a94187-9d41-47df-a55f-57afaaea45bc&ttla=PAR&ftla=WAS&origin=Washington,+DC,+United+States+(WAS-All+Airports)&destination=Paris+(and+vicinity)&startDate=8/7/2017&endDate=8/16/2017&checkInDate=8/7/2017&checkOutDate=8/16/2017&adults=2&children=1_10,1_13&infantsInSeats=0&cabinClass=f®ionId=179898&star=50&sort=recommended&rfrr=PKG.FH.HSR.Refine.Destination

Assuming a family of 4, that entire trip leaves you $73,200 to run your house for the year. If you can't run a household on $6,100 a month after your housing and car expenses have already been paid for, you need to reexamine your life.

I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

You think the pp is mean and angry for pointing out some basic math for living on an income of 350k? I think most people are baffled that ppl with the 350k HHI income can't get it together to actually live a good life. I mean really, where is all that money going if it isn't a luxury vacations or whatever else?

Thank you, that is definitely what I was going for. I was not trying to be mean, though I was trying to point out how ridiculous that statement was.

I really am baffled. Personally I don't need a million dollar house or two $70K car loans, but even assuming I did, I have literally no idea what I would do with the $8,000 a month left over. Right now my wife and I spend about $1,600 a month on household expenses. That includes all of our food, entertainment, gadgets, bar tabs, etc. and it provides everything I really want in my life. I cannot fathom what I would do with the remaining $6,400 besides give it to charity. I guess I could invest it but that would just compound my problem of having more money than I can spend. What's the point?

Are you planning to work until you die?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

Come on. You're an idiot or a troll.

We have HHI $365K and we're upper class.

-$1million house
-international travel yearly with 3 kids
-AND we max 2 401Ks yearly plus save about $50K more.

On no planet is $350K "middle class"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

Come on. You're an idiot or a troll.

We have HHI $365K and we're upper class.

-$1million house
-international travel yearly with 3 kids
-AND we max 2 401Ks yearly plus save about $50K more.

On no planet is $350K "middle class"

Do you fly first class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Sorry, I generally agree with OP, but no, there's no way someone on a 350k income is taking first class trips to Europe unless they have family money or something. Or just spending everything coming in. It's a comfortable lifestyle, sure, but not luxury.

Even maxing your 401K, $350K is about $16,500 in monthly net income.

An $800,000 mortgage ($1M - 20% down) with taxes and insurance is around $5,000/month. Loans on 2 $70K cars would be $3,000/mo. That leaves them $8,000 a month every month, or $96,000 a year after living and car expenses. Even assuming their household expenses are astronomical, you could easily fly to Europe first class on that income. A quick Expedia search shows a 10 day trip to Paris with 1st class flights and a 5 star hotel clocking in at $5,700 per person: https://www.expedia.com/Hotel-Search?packageType=fh#packageType=fh&c=94a94187-9d41-47df-a55f-57afaaea45bc&ttla=PAR&ftla=WAS&origin=Washington,+DC,+United+States+(WAS-All+Airports)&destination=Paris+(and+vicinity)&startDate=8/7/2017&endDate=8/16/2017&checkInDate=8/7/2017&checkOutDate=8/16/2017&adults=2&children=1_10,1_13&infantsInSeats=0&cabinClass=f®ionId=179898&star=50&sort=recommended&rfrr=PKG.FH.HSR.Refine.Destination

Assuming a family of 4, that entire trip leaves you $73,200 to run your house for the year. If you can't run a household on $6,100 a month after your housing and car expenses have already been paid for, you need to reexamine your life.

I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

You think the pp is mean and angry for pointing out some basic math for living on an income of 350k? I think most people are baffled that ppl with the 350k HHI income can't get it together to actually live a good life. I mean really, where is all that money going if it isn't a luxury vacations or whatever else?

Thank you, that is definitely what I was going for. I was not trying to be mean, though I was trying to point out how ridiculous that statement was.

I really am baffled. Personally I don't need a million dollar house or two $70K car loans, but even assuming I did, I have literally no idea what I would do with the $8,000 a month left over. Right now my wife and I spend about $1,600 a month on household expenses. That includes all of our food, entertainment, gadgets, bar tabs, etc. and it provides everything I really want in my life. I cannot fathom what I would do with the remaining $6,400 besides give it to charity. I guess I could invest it but that would just compound my problem of having more money than I can spend. What's the point?

Your total outlay is $1,600? We spend a little bit under that just on groceries. We spend more than $1,600 a month between groceries and eating out. My husband spends $3,000 a month on leisure purchases just on one of his credit cards. How much do you spend on vacation? How much do you and your wife spend annually on clothes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

How much do you make/ year?

Just shy of $140K HHI. I'm the guy with the modest house and car back on page 4.

I won't lie, if someone offered me $350K to do what I do now (or at least to have the same hours and stress level I have now) I'd take it in a heartbeat, but my lifestyle wouldn't change too much. I'd buy a little bungalow or rambler somewhere near rock creek, drink nicer beer, put more towards my retirement, and give a lot more to charity, but that's about it. I'd probably go to Europe once in a while too. First class of course, since I'd be able to afford it!

Are you married and do you have kids?

Yes I'm married and no I don't have or plan on having kids.

So you have no idea how much it costs to run a household with kids. And I do believe you would be fine in your little bungalow and buying first class tickets to Europe, if, assuming, you could ever afford to!

Admittedly I don't, but in the aforementioned scenario with a million dollar house, you're obviously going to be in a district with good public schools, so between food and clothes and the extra insurance I can't imagine they are costing you $70K+ a year unless you are deliberately choosing to make it so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Sorry, I generally agree with OP, but no, there's no way someone on a 350k income is taking first class trips to Europe unless they have family money or something. Or just spending everything coming in. It's a comfortable lifestyle, sure, but not luxury.

Even maxing your 401K, $350K is about $16,500 in monthly net income.

An $800,000 mortgage ($1M - 20% down) with taxes and insurance is around $5,000/month. Loans on 2 $70K cars would be $3,000/mo. That leaves them $8,000 a month every month, or $96,000 a year after living and car expenses. Even assuming their household expenses are astronomical, you could easily fly to Europe first class on that income. A quick Expedia search shows a 10 day trip to Paris with 1st class flights and a 5 star hotel clocking in at $5,700 per person: https://www.expedia.com/Hotel-Search?packageType=fh#packageType=fh&c=94a94187-9d41-47df-a55f-57afaaea45bc&ttla=PAR&ftla=WAS&origin=Washington,+DC,+United+States+(WAS-All+Airports)&destination=Paris+(and+vicinity)&startDate=8/7/2017&endDate=8/16/2017&checkInDate=8/7/2017&checkOutDate=8/16/2017&adults=2&children=1_10,1_13&infantsInSeats=0&cabinClass=f®ionId=179898&star=50&sort=recommended&rfrr=PKG.FH.HSR.Refine.Destination

Assuming a family of 4, that entire trip leaves you $73,200 to run your house for the year. If you can't run a household on $6,100 a month after your housing and car expenses have already been paid for, you need to reexamine your life.

I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

You think the pp is mean and angry for pointing out some basic math for living on an income of 350k? I think most people are baffled that ppl with the 350k HHI income can't get it together to actually live a good life. I mean really, where is all that money going if it isn't a luxury vacations or whatever else?

Saving for retirement, investments, a secure financial future. Not throwing it away on first class tickets to Europe.

A

Ok so you have the luxury of securing your financial future and investing, not struggling by any means. This thread has a bunch of high HHI posters claiming to be struggling but it's still not apparent why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

THIS is such a typical DCUM hairbrained response.

No, PP, you are NOT middle class. You people define middle class as having a house, one or two cars and a vacation every year. Except in your case, it's a $1MM++ house, two $$$ cars and first class tickets to Europe. That's not middle class.

I find this thread hilarious, because so many PPs are dishing on OP for not wanting to be called "lower class" when you would instantly react if someone called you Upper Class. When you clearly are.

Sorry, I generally agree with OP, but no, there's no way someone on a 350k income is taking first class trips to Europe unless they have family money or something. Or just spending everything coming in. It's a comfortable lifestyle, sure, but not luxury.

Even maxing your 401K, $350K is about $16,500 in monthly net income.

An $800,000 mortgage ($1M - 20% down) with taxes and insurance is around $5,000/month. Loans on 2 $70K cars would be $3,000/mo. That leaves them $8,000 a month every month, or $96,000 a year after living and car expenses. Even assuming their household expenses are astronomical, you could easily fly to Europe first class on that income. A quick Expedia search shows a 10 day trip to Paris with 1st class flights and a 5 star hotel clocking in at $5,700 per person: https://www.expedia.com/Hotel-Search?packageType=fh#packageType=fh&c=94a94187-9d41-47df-a55f-57afaaea45bc&ttla=PAR&ftla=WAS&origin=Washington,+DC,+United+States+(WAS-All+Airports)&destination=Paris+(and+vicinity)&startDate=8/7/2017&endDate=8/16/2017&checkInDate=8/7/2017&checkOutDate=8/16/2017&adults=2&children=1_10,1_13&infantsInSeats=0&cabinClass=f®ionId=179898&star=50&sort=recommended&rfrr=PKG.FH.HSR.Refine.Destination

Assuming a family of 4, that entire trip leaves you $73,200 to run your house for the year. If you can't run a household on $6,100 a month after your housing and car expenses have already been paid for, you need to reexamine your life.

I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

You think the pp is mean and angry for pointing out some basic math for living on an income of 350k? I think most people are baffled that ppl with the 350k HHI income can't get it together to actually live a good life. I mean really, where is all that money going if it isn't a luxury vacations or whatever else?

Saving for retirement, investments, a secure financial future. Not throwing it away on first class tickets to Europe.

A

Ok so you have the luxury of securing your financial future and investing, not struggling by any means. This thread has a bunch of high HHI posters claiming to be struggling but it's still not apparent why.

Right, which makes it a comfortable lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP. That's interesting, except you left off the description of proletariat. I assume that would be lower-middle class, or even working class. Sounds like an interesting book.

Fussell lays out groupings that are basically Top, Center, and Bottom.

The Top classes are the Top Out-of-Sight, the Upper, and the Upper-Middle.

The Center classes are the Middle, the High Proletarian, the Mid Proletarian, and the Low Proletarian.

The Bottom classes are the Destitute, and the Bottom Out-of-Sight.

The stereotypical middle-class job is a white-collar, 40-hour-a-week office job. Middles are more likely to feel enslaved by their boss and their company, and would like to move up to the upper middle by sending their kids to good colleges, or through marriage.

High proles are typically found in the skilled trades--surveyors, plumbers, auto mechanics, and such. Their income often exceeds that of the middle class.

Mid-prole jobs don't carry the status of the high proles, but are still a notch above minimum wage--driving a forklift in a factory might be a good example. Note that some high proles may have incomes over $200k. An example would be the longshoremen at the Port of Long Beach.

Low proles can usually be found in the minimum wage jobs. Examples would be crew members at fast food chains.

Here's a fun quiz that Fussell had in his book:

http://washingtonmonthly.com/2012/05/25/whats-your-social-class/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle income is not the same as middle class. The overlap between the two has to do with how the income is generated.

Here's one way to think about it (Class: A Guide Through the American Status System):

The Top Class (out of sight)
Wealth through inheritance alone. Multi-generational.

The Upper Class
They often inherit a good amount of money, but they earn it too doing some slight and attractive type of work.

The Upper-Middle Class
They earn large amounts of money through things like investment banking, medicine, big law, etc. If they stop working, their income stops.

The Middle Class
Corporate white collar workers.

The Proletarian Class

A person making $100,000 is likely middle class, even if that's well above the median income.

This is an interesting classification, and it certainly fit in with my conception of our family as middle class/upper-middle class. We have zero inherited wealth but are doing fine for ourselves, as long as we're able to work the jobs we have.

I am trying to find the calculator, but I ran across one recently that said middle INCOME for a family in Fairfax county was something like $110-$125K. I think it was assuming a modest mortgage payment and at least one child in some sort of daycare/aftercare, but that didn't surprise me either. I think income and class stratification are definitely different.

In the DC area, the median salary strata is something like between $80K and $160K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We only bring in 350k or so and we're definitely middle class around here.

Come on. You're an idiot or a troll.

We have HHI $365K and we're upper class.

-$1million house
-international travel yearly with 3 kids
-AND we max 2 401Ks yearly plus save about $50K more.

On no planet is $350K "middle class"

Do you fly first class?