The real bubble is in the heartland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming from the midwest, I thought this was very true:

Republicans have mastered wielding the struggles of poor white Americans as a cudgel against blacks, against Latinos, against women, against Jews and Muslims and LGBTQ folks. See them? They’re to blame for your struggle. You’re hurting because of them! I am tired of wealthy conservatives who have never set foot among us “white trash”—and sure as hell wouldn’t want their children marrying us—filming campaign commercials of themselves wading through star-spangled cornfields and ranting about the so-called “liberal bubble” and every buzzword that goes with it: Hollywood, communists, “college educated,” etc

Democrats have used the struggles of poor minorities as a cudgel against whites etc. as if they alone are the solution to change their station in life. Yet when in power, little to nothing changes.

Agree. Dems are just mad because their use of identity politics didn't triumph. They thought it would pay off to tell poor white people to check their privilege and to vote for the Dem candidate or else they're racist.

Turns out it didn't.

Stop the alt right talking point. Republicans created identity politics with the Southern Strategy. Both parties do it. BTW, there is nothing wrong with identity politics. Urban people are going to be interested in different issues than rural people.

Do you also think the Sexual Revolution created sex? Identity politics is as old as time. Part of the reason it works is people are simple and lacking a much better option, identity politics is the most attractive solution. It can be useful at times, but yes, often there are things wrong with it.

Urban and rural people have more in common than they have that is different. But there are some very powerful forces that love the divide and conquer solution to their maintenance of power.

Your response is nonsensical. Both parties love identity politics. It doesn't bother me at all. I have very little in common with people who live in the heartland. I have friends from there who live in DC, but they even admit that they are no longer accepted in their birthplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the rural furniture and textile South. Except the furniture plants moved overseas and the textile plants went bankrupt. Tobacco is winding down too. And the area, which was no great shakes and pretty poor to begin with, is now deeply depressed. So I get why they voted Trump. (BTW-- this was a part of the South with openly racist, homophobic people who have never met a Muslim, and fly a confederate fly on their pickup, so there is some of that too).

But, putting aside for the moment how we got here-- those jobs aren't coming back. But don't tell that to my High school classmates on my FB feed, who are waiting for Trump to revive the furniture, textile and tobacco industries. And these now 40 year old often dropped out of school the day they turned 16 to work in the furniture factory, like their dad and grandad. So, they have no transferable skills or education. It's a terrible position for anyone to be in. But, telling them manufacturing is coming back is cruel. It's just not. And until someone is brave enough to be up front about that and offer real retraining programs, and tell them that their next job may pay less, they are screwed. It's like my whole hometown is waiting for Trump Godot.

And, BTW, this is in NC. So good luck with trying to bring in new industries to replace those that left while the politicians running the state are more concerned about making sure transgendered people are using the correct bathroom than bringing in new business. The whole state is being boycotted.

I was one of the few people I know in this area who was not shocked Trump won, because I get why people voted for him. But because I do care about where I came from, his win was tough for me. I do believe that under his policies, my Fed job and college elite lifestyle in the DMV area wil be fine, I will pay less taxes and continue to have good federal health insurance. But my hometown will be worse of in 4 years than it is now. And they do need real help.

Thanks for your refreshing take on the situation . In the spirit of truthfulness , it's safe to say your 'people ' are simply idiotic , at least the majority in that demography. I am not one to pay much attention to an individual's academic pedigree simply because I believe there comes a time in life when we all have to exercise better judgement , or, at the very least try as hard as we can to think critically and calmly for ourselves . If, in spite of everything you wrote above those people still choose to cling to a world that stopped existing thanks in no small part to the policies they've voted for . I think my sympathy is reserved for a more deserving group , your 'people ' aren't making the cut


You're absolutely right , these folks are about to be worse off than they're now . They have it coming

Do they have it coming? Yes and no. I asked my MS DD after the election, when I was explaining it to her, what percentage of people she though had a college degree. And she said everyone did. That is her world. Almost everyone she knows in the community went to college. She could not fathom a place, like my high school, where maybe 1/4 of the kids went to some type of 2 or 4 year college. And many of those did not get a degree. And only 2-3 kids per graduating class made it out. Generational poverty and generations of families where no one has a high school education, and where the expectation is that you will drop out and work as soon as you legally can is not easy to fix. And it's hard for someone with a 10 th grade education to understand the intricacies of NAFTA or health insurance markets. Especially when that 10th grade education was in crappy schools, and they are functionally illiterate. This is not the WAPo, NPR crowd. Think more Friday Night Lights, with less football talent.

So yes, they made bad decisions, and hurt themselves, and the rest of us. But I'm not sure they have the education or savvy to understand that Trump was selling snake oil.

And it's just complicated. This is where I grew up, and where my parents still live. But, DH and I made a very conscious decision not to raise our children there. I care about the people there, and am also deeply disappointed in them. They were at one point "my people," although I never really 100% fit in. But, I could not move back now and just become part of the community again. If I was unusual at 15, at 40, I'm an alien.

It's sad, and depressing, and complicated with no apparent fix. But it is not as simple as idiots who deserve what they get.

Sorry, it's hard to have sympathy for them when I see poor legal immigrants who don't speak any English manage to find *some* kind of job, and push their kids to go to college. Those people you speak of have two major advantages most immigrants don't have: knowing the language and culture of this country. There really should be no excuse.

Totally agree . The mere fact that excuses are being made for these people , prove how fundamentally racist and bigoted this country is . When 'others' are reeling from economic hardships we're served a constant stream of sermons about character defect , personal responsibility , hard work and what not . Let them eat brioche

[Anonymous]

I am perhaps a bit older than many of the posters on this politics forum so I know that the heartlands issue is one that has been around for a long time. The difference is that 25 years ago it was the Democratic left that championed the economic concerns of the heartlands, particularly the rust belt states and declining steel/coal/manufacturing industrial towns, and there was a long history of small town populism in the prairies and even the south, legacies of the New Deal that lasted into the 1990s. In those days it was the Republicans who were more likely than not to take an indifferent tone, argue that the economics had changed and trying to prop up the declining heartlands was throwing good money after bad. They argued that industry had no future and we were moving towards a service economy and should accept the reality of it.

Today, it seems to have flipped. It's now the Democrats who take the cold indifference towards the concerns of the Heartlands and the Republicans (well, Trumpists at least) who are championing the plight of the heartland regions. Much of it likely does have to do with identity politics. White working classes are no longer fashionable or needed by the Democrats, who seem to show more empathy for the plight of the urban based minorities in struggling areas like Baltimore or Anacostia (mildly curious, if the thread was about urban minorities living in their urban ghetto bubbles, how many of you would be taking a quite different tone?)

But I also think it's more than just identity politics. The Democratic establishment have married identity politics with neoliberalism - accepting market based capitalist forces and retreating from the large scale government intrusion into the markets that they once championed under the New Deal and up through the 1980s. It began under Bill Clinton and has accelerated ever since. This marriage of compromise worked remarkably well for the party who now sell themselves as socially progressive and fiscally conservative, which is an ideal combination in many ways. But it is that marriage, especially the fiscally conservative aspect, that has caused the party to openly abandon many Americans by accepting the dominance of the market forces and not questioning the inevitability of globalism, which I find ironic because the market, if left on its own, is cold and ruthlessly brutal and a terrible force. And we have seen the consequences over the last twenty years through the growing divide in this country, Americans against Americans, of regions against regions. It's telling that when I was a child no one talked about flyover country or the coasts versus the hinterlands. But now everything seems to be framed in that context.

At the end of the day, the heartland voters are still Americans. Most have lived quiet, law-abiding lives and paid their taxes. They have just as much stake in this country than anyone who lives in DC or California or any prosperous region. While tens of millions have left the heartlands for better opportunities elsewhere, those who remained behind should not be mocked or laughed at - there is, after all, more to life than the economy and money. Many value family and friendship and the familiarity over the unknown. Being indifferent to their plight or concerns is not helpful. It does not necessarily mean that I agree or support a radical restructuring of the nation's economic framework, but if their vote for Trump was a cry, it should be listened and at least, considered. And we should also be aware that millions supported Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren for similar reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am perhaps a bit older than many of the posters on this politics forum so I know that the heartlands issue is one that has been around for a long time. The difference is that 25 years ago it was the Democratic left that championed the economic concerns of the heartlands, particularly the rust belt states and declining steel/coal/manufacturing industrial towns, and there was a long history of small town populism in the prairies and even the south, legacies of the New Deal that lasted into the 1990s. In those days it was the Republicans who were more likely than not to take an indifferent tone, argue that the economics had changed and trying to prop up the declining heartlands was throwing good money after bad. They argued that industry had no future and we were moving towards a service economy and should accept the reality of it.

Today, it seems to have flipped. It's now the Democrats who take the cold indifference towards the concerns of the Heartlands and the Republicans (well, Trumpists at least) who are championing the plight of the heartland regions. Much of it likely does have to do with identity politics. White working classes are no longer fashionable or needed by the Democrats, who seem to show more empathy for the plight of the urban based minorities in struggling areas like Baltimore or Anacostia (mildly curious, if the thread was about urban minorities living in their urban ghetto bubbles, how many of you would be taking a quite different tone?)

But I also think it's more than just identity politics. The Democratic establishment have married identity politics with neoliberalism - accepting market based capitalist forces and retreating from the large scale government intrusion into the markets that they once championed under the New Deal and up through the 1980s. It began under Bill Clinton and has accelerated ever since. This marriage of compromise worked remarkably well for the party who now sell themselves as socially progressive and fiscally conservative, which is an ideal combination in many ways. But it is that marriage, especially the fiscally conservative aspect, that has caused the party to openly abandon many Americans by accepting the dominance of the market forces and not questioning the inevitability of globalism, which I find ironic because the market, if left on its own, is cold and ruthlessly brutal and a terrible force. And we have seen the consequences over the last twenty years through the growing divide in this country, Americans against Americans, of regions against regions. It's telling that when I was a child no one talked about flyover country or the coasts versus the hinterlands. But now everything seems to be framed in that context.

At the end of the day, the heartland voters are still Americans. Most have lived quiet, law-abiding lives and paid their taxes. They have just as much stake in this country than anyone who lives in DC or California or any prosperous region. While tens of millions have left the heartlands for better opportunities elsewhere, those who remained behind should not be mocked or laughed at - there is, after all, more to life than the economy and money. Many value family and friendship and the familiarity over the unknown. Being indifferent to their plight or concerns is not helpful. It does not necessarily mean that I agree or support a radical restructuring of the nation's economic framework, but if their vote for Trump was a cry, it should be listened and at least, considered. And we should also be aware that millions supported Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren for similar reasons.

Solid, solid post.

-Another middle-aged poster who worries about the decades-long shift by Democratic politicians

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[...]
It's telling that when I was a child no one talked about flyover country or the coasts versus the hinterlands. But now everything seems to be framed in that context.
[...]

I can assure you, they did. Hicks, city mouse vs. country mouse, etc - there has been a divide forever.

And I, too am from one of these places and I call horsepucky on the "Democratic indifference" line. The Democrats have had way more to say about these gaps than the Republucans, but people in these areas have been conditioned to hate the mechanisms Democrats support to fix them. That's not "indifference." That's the fact that these people are metaphorically starving but without trying what's on the plate,they don't like what the Democrats are offering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: That's the fact that these people are metaphorically starving but without trying what's on the plate,they don't like what the Democrats are offering.

Like what? More welfare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming from the midwest, I thought this was very true:

Republicans have mastered wielding the struggles of poor white Americans as a cudgel against blacks, against Latinos, against women, against Jews and Muslims and LGBTQ folks. See them? They’re to blame for your struggle. You’re hurting because of them! I am tired of wealthy conservatives who have never set foot among us “white trash”—and sure as hell wouldn’t want their children marrying us—filming campaign commercials of themselves wading through star-spangled cornfields and ranting about the so-called “liberal bubble” and every buzzword that goes with it: Hollywood, communists, “college educated,” etc

Democrats have used the struggles of poor minorities as a cudgel against whites etc. as if they alone are the solution to change their station in life. Yet when in power, little to nothing changes.

Agree. Dems are just mad because their use of identity politics didn't triumph. They thought it would pay off to tell poor white people to check their privilege and to vote for the Dem candidate or else they're racist.

Turns out it didn't.

Stop the alt right talking point. Republicans created identity politics with the Southern Strategy. Both parties do it. BTW, there is nothing wrong with identity politics. Urban people are going to be interested in different issues than rural people.

Do you also think the Sexual Revolution created sex? Identity politics is as old as time. Part of the reason it works is people are simple and lacking a much better option, identity politics is the most attractive solution. It can be useful at times, but yes, often there are things wrong with it.

Urban and rural people have more in common than they have that is different. But there are some very powerful forces that love the divide and conquer solution to their maintenance of power.

Your response is nonsensical. Both parties love identity politics. It doesn't bother me at all. I have very little in common with people who live in the heartland. I have friends from there who live in DC, but they even admit that they are no longer accepted in their birthplace.

You're getting too wrapped up in the concept of "other". If you said the same thing about not having things in common with blacks or jews in polite liberal company, there would be outrage. Yes, a white person in the rural southeast might enjoy noodling while you enjoy noodles at the latest hip Asian fusion noodle bar, but you two are still much more alike than you are different. You have hopes and fears and anxieties and all that. In the political realm, especially if you worry about catastrophe, you should start your ideas with the similarities you have with people, literally everyone out there. Once you've done that, then address your differences.