Reaction to "Study of Choice and Special Academic Programs: Report of Findings and Recommendations"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, Inview doesn't test achievement. It tests cognitive abilities. Otherwise, they wouldn't use it to identify gifted children in 2nd grade.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests.htm

InView grades 2-12 (only 6 levels available, each covering 2 grades)
Group cognitive abilities test, "comprised of five subtests: Verbal Reasoning-Words; Verbal Reasoning-Context; Sequences; Analogies; and Quantitative Reasoning. InView does not measure all aspects of cognitive abilities. Since it is intended for use in schools, emphasis is placed on reasoning abilities that are important for success in an educational program." Elementary level InView is said to have hard ceiling of 141, where gifted is 127+.

My kid bombed the InView, did ok (compared to the median scores of admitted students) on the CogAt, and did very well at the HGC.

Cogat = Measures reasoning abilities
InView = measures cognitive abilities

OK, I'll ask the dumb question: what is the difference between reasoning and cognitive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Pp here. I agree with you, that's why I also stated earlier that using this measure alone would not go over well. I stated that we should do this same thing (rely only on tests) in jest.

It doesn't matter when the kid takes the test, and whether the parent knows when it is. They will still prep.

It won't matter if we rely on the InView or the HGC test alone, there is no sure fire way to make it completely equitable because life isn't equitable. Some kids will have been "prepped" at home by parents who provide enriching activities like puzzles and what not, which helps with cognitive abilities. The only way to make it equitable is to put all kids in a state run facility the minute they are born, and they are all treated exactly the same. Never going to happen, either.

Things will never be perfectly equitable. But there are certainly things that MCPS can do to reduce the inequities, and MCPS should do those things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Pp here. I agree with you, that's why I also stated earlier that using this measure alone would not go over well. I stated that we should do this same thing (rely only on tests) in jest.

It doesn't matter when the kid takes the test, and whether the parent knows when it is. They will still prep.

It won't matter if we rely on the InView or the HGC test alone, there is no sure fire way to make it completely equitable because life isn't equitable. Some kids will have been "prepped" at home by parents who provide enriching activities like puzzles and what not, which helps with cognitive abilities. The only way to make it equitable is to put all kids in a state run facility the minute they are born, and they are all treated exactly the same. Never going to happen, either.

Things will never be perfectly equitable. But there are certainly things that MCPS can do to reduce the inequities, and MCPS should do those things.

and they are trying, like providing more services to Title 1 schools, etc. If they want to do more outreach in those communities, that's great, too.

But, one thing they should not do to try to make it equitable is to lower the standards for URM. That is not making it equitable. That is having different standards for different groups of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Pp here. I agree with you, that's why I also stated earlier that using this measure alone would not go over well. I stated that we should do this same thing (rely only on tests) in jest.

It doesn't matter when the kid takes the test, and whether the parent knows when it is. They will still prep.

It won't matter if we rely on the InView or the HGC test alone, there is no sure fire way to make it completely equitable because life isn't equitable. Some kids will have been "prepped" at home by parents who provide enriching activities like puzzles and what not, which helps with cognitive abilities. The only way to make it equitable is to put all kids in a state run facility the minute they are born, and they are all treated exactly the same. Never going to happen, either.

Things will never be perfectly equitable. But there are certainly things that MCPS can do to reduce the inequities, and MCPS should do those things.

and they are trying, like providing more services to Title 1 schools, etc. If they want to do more outreach in those communities, that's great, too.

But, one thing they should not do to try to make it equitable is to lower the standards for URM. That is not making it equitable. That is having different standards for different groups of people.

Nobody is talking about lowering standards except people on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

NYT article today, "Why Talented Black and Hispanic Students Can Go Undiscovered"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Pp here. I agree with you, that's why I also stated earlier that using this measure alone would not go over well. I stated that we should do this same thing (rely only on tests) in jest.

It doesn't matter when the kid takes the test, and whether the parent knows when it is. They will still prep.

It won't matter if we rely on the InView or the HGC test alone, there is no sure fire way to make it completely equitable because life isn't equitable. Some kids will have been "prepped" at home by parents who provide enriching activities like puzzles and what not, which helps with cognitive abilities. The only way to make it equitable is to put all kids in a state run facility the minute they are born, and they are all treated exactly the same. Never going to happen, either.

Things will never be perfectly equitable. But there are certainly things that MCPS can do to reduce the inequities, and MCPS should do those things.

and they are trying, like providing more services to Title 1 schools, etc. If they want to do more outreach in those communities, that's great, too.

But, one thing they should not do to try to make it equitable is to lower the standards for URM. That is not making it equitable. That is having different standards for different groups of people.

Nobody is talking about lowering standards except people on DCUM.

They want to have more diversity in the magnets. One of the things recommended was to change the admissions criteria to achieve this. This was discussed in the other thread.

starting from here:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/547680.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NYT article today, "Why Talented Black and Hispanic Students Can Go Undiscovered"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html?_r=1

Nonverbal test as first step.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
They want to have more diversity in the magnets. One of the things recommended was to change the admissions criteria to achieve this. This was discussed in the other thread.

starting from here:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/547680.page

Changing the admissions criteria does not necessarily mean lowering the standards. Why do you assume that it does?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NYT article today, "Why Talented Black and Hispanic Students Can Go Undiscovered"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html?_r=1

Nonverbal test as first step.

We already due this screening and many minority kids are identified however because of the limited slots many don't make it to the HGC. So we are back to the same solution almost everyone will agree with.... Make more slots!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NYT article today, "Why Talented Black and Hispanic Students Can Go Undiscovered"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html?_r=1

Nonverbal test as first step.

We already due this screening and many minority kids are identified however because of the limited slots many don't make it to the HGC. So we are back to the same solution almost everyone will agree with.... Make more slots!

But that will water down the HGC!!!!1!!@!!

Or, more sincerely, I already think it's a bad idea to take select kids out of their home school for just 4-5th grade. I don't support taking even more kids out for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
They want to have more diversity in the magnets. One of the things recommended was to change the admissions criteria to achieve this. This was discussed in the other thread.

starting from here:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/547680.page

Changing the admissions criteria does not necessarily mean lowering the standards. Why do you assume that it does?

If it means admitting less qualified students, then they will end up having to water down the curriculum so that the less qualified students don't struggle too much. "Less qualified" means those that don't score as high on the tests but are admitted anyways just because they are URM compared to Asian/white kids that score the same and are not admitted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
They want to have more diversity in the magnets. One of the things recommended was to change the admissions criteria to achieve this. This was discussed in the other thread.

starting from here:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/547680.page

Changing the admissions criteria does not necessarily mean lowering the standards. Why do you assume that it does?

If it means admitting less qualified students, then they will end up having to water down the curriculum so that the less qualified students don't struggle too much. "Less qualified" means those that don't score as high on the tests but are admitted anyways just because they are URM compared to Asian/white kids that score the same and are not admitted.

Why do you assume that it means admitting less-qualified students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
They want to have more diversity in the magnets. One of the things recommended was to change the admissions criteria to achieve this. This was discussed in the other thread.

starting from here:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/547680.page

Changing the admissions criteria does not necessarily mean lowering the standards. Why do you assume that it does?

If it means admitting less qualified students, then they will end up having to water down the curriculum so that the less qualified students don't struggle too much. "Less qualified" means those that don't score as high on the tests but are admitted anyways just because they are URM compared to Asian/white kids that score the same and are not admitted.

Why do you assume that it means admitting less-qualified students?

OK, then you tell me how they should change the admittance criteria to bring in more URM without lowering the bar on the test scores? I don't doubt that there are gifted URM students.

Let's look at the results of the InView test in 2nd grade as a predictor since InView tests cognitive abilities and all 2nd graders are tested. What is the stats on the InView test scores across demographics?

If the stats show that let's say 30% of URM are scoring gifted, but only 1% are taking the HGC test, then either those kids' parents aren't aware of the HGC or don't want them to go to one so they don't bother with the HGC test. So, if it's a matter of outreach, sure, MCPS should do a better job.

If it turns out that they are taking the test at about the same rate as those represented as "gifted" by InView, then they are still not getting in because they don't score as high on the HGC, and MCPS still wants more URM participation in HGC, then it shows that they want to change the admission criteria to either lower the bar or not rely on test scores. Either way, kids who don't score very high on the HGC aren't as qualified to attend HGC compared to a kid who does score high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OK, then you tell me how they should change the admittance criteria to bring in more URM without lowering the bar on the test scores? I don't doubt that there are gifted URM students.

Let's look at the results of the InView test in 2nd grade as a predictor since InView tests cognitive abilities and all 2nd graders are tested. What is the stats on the InView test scores across demographics?

If the stats show that let's say 30% of URM are scoring gifted, but only 1% are taking the HGC test, then either those kids' parents aren't aware of the HGC or don't want them to go to one so they don't bother with the HGC test. So, if it's a matter of outreach, sure, MCPS should do a better job.

If it turns out that they are taking the test at about the same rate as those represented as "gifted" by InView, then they are still not getting in because they don't score as high on the HGC, and MCPS still wants more URM participation in HGC, then it shows that they want to change the admission criteria to either lower the bar or not rely on test scores. Either way, kids who don't score very high on the HGC aren't as qualified to attend HGC compared to a kid who does score high.

Ah. You assume that it means admitting less-qualified students because you're equating "qualified" and "test scores".

I think that's a mistake.

Not to mention that, as a PP pointed out, MCPS is ALREADY admitting less-qualified students, given that every HGC that is not Cold Spring consistently has lower median admitted test scores than Cold Spring. Probably every HGC other than Cold Spring already has a watered-down, dumbed-down, whatever-you-want-to-call-it-down curriculum. Things probably also got dumber when my kid's HGC went from two classrooms per grade to three.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes. The bolded indicated that every kid was given the test, and the ones who scored very high were then referred to IQ testing. It indicates that identifying a kid as gifted was solely reliant on test results.

The HGC test is to identify those that are "gifted" for entry into the program. So, just as they did, don't rely on parental or teacher input. Have every kid take the test, and admit purely by test scores.

That won't go over very well.

No, the HGC application is to identify those who are "highly gifted" (whatever that means, and everybody has a different idea) for entry into the program. The whole application. Not just the test results.

The PP posted the article indicating that more URM kids were identified as gifted simply by having all kids take the test, and devoid of any parental or teacher input. So, I am saying let's do the same thing here: have all kids take the HGC test. That alone should determine who gets in. You can decline if you don't want to go, but like the other case, that one test alone should identify who is gifted, and thereby, who gets in.

It would also help the home school teacher know which kids need more acceleration based on the test scores.

MCPS won't do that. That will make the achievement gap look even worse. There need to be 'soft' or 'holistic' criteria to be maneuvered without getting any legal trouble.