Should AAP demographics represent FCPS as a whole

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a novel idea:

Offer general education, honors, and AAP in ES - similar to MS and HS (GE, honors, AP).

In ES, parents could decide if they wanted their DC in GE or honors. And keep AAP for those who qualify.

My oh my what a GREAT idea!!!

I think this is a great idea but it doesn't fix the issue in identifying qualifying gifted minority students. I don't buy into the notion that half of humanity is inherently less intelligent.

LOL... sorry to burst your bubble, but yes, half the kids are below average and thus less intelligent than the other half. It's a statistics thing....

Lol,sorry to burst your bubble but your logic is flawed in that you believe the half that is below average automatically has to be the minority students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a novel idea:

Offer general education, honors, and AAP in ES - similar to MS and HS (GE, honors, AP).

In ES, parents could decide if they wanted their DC in GE or honors. And keep AAP for those who qualify.

My oh my what a GREAT idea!!!

Not really.

MANY parents have very unrealistic ideas of their kids' intelligence in elementary, particularly in the younger grades. Moms in the mid to upper elementary grades often (not always) care more about orchestrating their kids' (mostly daughters') placements in everything from class assignments to sports to brownie troops to who goes in what group, to reflect the moms' (and sometimes the kids') social groupings.

Parents would be jostling for placememt based on a whole lot of things that have very little to do with academics.

By middle school, the parents have much more realistic perspdctive on their kids' strengths and weaknessss (but not always) and the kids are usually to the point where they push back on mom orchestrating their friendships.

What you propose would be a nightmare for the teachers and schools, and also the kids who aren't part of "the group."

Oh please. This is ALREADY going on! At our center, the vast majority of cliquish girls are in AAP. They didn't all get in initially, but those moms made sure to keep pushing until all of this particular group was accepted because they couldn't stand the idea of some of the friends not being in AAP. Every year, they push the principal to make sure these girls (there are about 12 of them) are in the same classes together. AAP has been most divisive element to our school, without exception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New Parent to FCPS and AAP. My DS went into AAP after spending the first 6 years (K-5) at a Dual Language Private School. We don’t consider our DS gifted…just a hard worker…works until he overcomes the challenge. The private school had most of the kids working at least 1 grade level above maybe 2 in some areas as part of the normal curriculum; it was not a gifted program but the teachers held the kids to high standards and the kids learned to meet those standards. Because high standards were part of the environment; the kids (and the parents) learned to adjust. Our DS first year in AAP was a review for most of the subjects. Was he gifted because he knew more than the other “gifted kids” who had been in the program since 3rd grade? No, he was just taught some the material before they were. Our DS speaks fluent French and is able to read, write and study each subject in French. Is he gifted? No, he was taught in two languages. Nothing more. The FCPS AAP is not a “gifted program” it is an advanced curriculum program where the material is about 1 year ahead; and the one year ahead is a normal curriculum that their peers will learn the following year. Nothing more. I think most kids would be able to do well in AAP if afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material early on…say starting in 1st grade. AAP is a good public school advanced academic school program but in no way is it a “Gifted Program.” I would guess that if you took a random 1st grade class made up of an appropriate representation of FCPS demographics (of average kids) and taught them advanced material…they would do just fine. Our DS is African American and I don’t really see what the big deal is with AAP. I see more parents on this board trying to bolster the prestige of the AAP program and how special their DC are by putting their kids test scores out here for public consumption. What I don’t see as much on this board is those very parents coming back to this board after their child doesn’t get into TJ or if they have to pull their kid out of AAP for whatever reason and talk about that. If this AAP board is going to be useful I would think that parents would be more inclined to post information that is going to help other parents assist their kids in being successful not only in the AAP program but in school and life. The less than diverse demographics in AAP is more opportunity and access than it is about how intelligent your child is. Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.

I think this is the most accurate, well-written post I've ever read here on the AAP forum. Bravo to you.

[Anonymous]

SO...why the push-back of having ge, honors and aap beginning in 3rd grade. Keep aap for the high IQ kids, keep honors as open enrollment for the families that want their child to be afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material, and keep ge for the families that want their child in ge.

I DO NOT understand the push-back regarding this idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New Parent to FCPS and AAP. My DS went into AAP after spending the first 6 years (K-5) at a Dual Language Private School. We don’t consider our DS gifted…just a hard worker…works until he overcomes the challenge. The private school had most of the kids working at least 1 grade level above maybe 2 in some areas as part of the normal curriculum; it was not a gifted program but the teachers held the kids to high standards and the kids learned to meet those standards. Because high standards were part of the environment; the kids (and the parents) learned to adjust. Our DS first year in AAP was a review for most of the subjects. Was he gifted because he knew more than the other “gifted kids” who had been in the program since 3rd grade? No, he was just taught some the material before they were. Our DS speaks fluent French and is able to read, write and study each subject in French. Is he gifted? No, he was taught in two languages. Nothing more. The FCPS AAP is not a “gifted program” it is an advanced curriculum program where the material is about 1 year ahead; and the one year ahead is a normal curriculum that their peers will learn the following year. Nothing more. I think most kids would be able to do well in AAP if afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material early on…say starting in 1st grade. AAP is a good public school advanced academic school program but in no way is it a “Gifted Program.” I would guess that if you took a random 1st grade class made up of an appropriate representation of FCPS demographics (of average kids) and taught them advanced material…they would do just fine. Our DS is African American and I don’t really see what the big deal is with AAP. I see more parents on this board trying to bolster the prestige of the AAP program and how special their DC are by putting their kids test scores out here for public consumption. What I don’t see as much on this board is those very parents coming back to this board after their child doesn’t get into TJ or if they have to pull their kid out of AAP for whatever reason and talk about that. If this AAP board is going to be useful I would think that parents would be more inclined to post information that is going to help other parents assist their kids in being successful not only in the AAP program but in school and life. The less than diverse demographics in AAP is more opportunity and access than it is about how intelligent your child is. Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.

I think this is the most accurate, well-written post I've ever read here on the AAP forum. Bravo to you.

I agree with all of it except for the last sentence.

Not anyone can be successful at everything simply by virtue of "working hard." Really? Anyone who doesn't make the Olympics just didn't work hard enough? Anyone who doesn't become a best selling author just didn't work hard enough?

This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble. Everyone has to be treated like their outcomes can be equal. Equal opportunities do not guarantee equal outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New Parent to FCPS and AAP. My DS went into AAP after spending the first 6 years (K-5) at a Dual Language Private School. We don’t consider our DS gifted…just a hard worker…works until he overcomes the challenge. The private school had most of the kids working at least 1 grade level above maybe 2 in some areas as part of the normal curriculum; it was not a gifted program but the teachers held the kids to high standards and the kids learned to meet those standards. Because high standards were part of the environment; the kids (and the parents) learned to adjust. Our DS first year in AAP was a review for most of the subjects. Was he gifted because he knew more than the other “gifted kids” who had been in the program since 3rd grade? No, he was just taught some the material before they were. Our DS speaks fluent French and is able to read, write and study each subject in French. Is he gifted? No, he was taught in two languages. Nothing more. The FCPS AAP is not a “gifted program” it is an advanced curriculum program where the material is about 1 year ahead; and the one year ahead is a normal curriculum that their peers will learn the following year. Nothing more. I think most kids would be able to do well in AAP if afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material early on…say starting in 1st grade. AAP is a good public school advanced academic school program but in no way is it a “Gifted Program.” I would guess that if you took a random 1st grade class made up of an appropriate representation of FCPS demographics (of average kids) and taught them advanced material…they would do just fine. Our DS is African American and I don’t really see what the big deal is with AAP. I see more parents on this board trying to bolster the prestige of the AAP program and how special their DC are by putting their kids test scores out here for public consumption. What I don’t see as much on this board is those very parents coming back to this board after their child doesn’t get into TJ or if they have to pull their kid out of AAP for whatever reason and talk about that. If this AAP board is going to be useful I would think that parents would be more inclined to post information that is going to help other parents assist their kids in being successful not only in the AAP program but in school and life. The less than diverse demographics in AAP is more opportunity and access than it is about how intelligent your child is. Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.

I think this is the most accurate, well-written post I've ever read here on the AAP forum. Bravo to you.

I agree with all of it except for the last sentence.

Not anyone can be successful at everything simply by virtue of "working hard." Really? Anyone who doesn't make the Olympics just didn't work hard enough? Anyone who doesn't become a best selling author just didn't work hard enough?

This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble. Everyone has to be treated like their outcomes can be equal. Equal opportunities do not guarantee equal outcomes.

PP I guess that depends on your definition of success? If your definition of success is driven by a predetermined outcome (i.e., Making it to the Olympics or becoming a best-selling Author) which very few people in this world actually achieve, you may have a point. However, my definition of success for a child in AAP is a little less stringent; I believe that if a child is challenged they will work hard (some kids may need to work harder than others) to overcome that challenge. As parents we all know that life is a series of challenges that is sometimes interrupted by setbacks and momentary successes that are quickly replaced with a series of new challenges. The goal of education is to engaged and inspire kids to become more than they thought they could have been (often it takes loving and supportive parents and dedicated teachers), no matter how small or big the perceived outcome may be. I believe a child with average intelligence can learn math or any other subject one grade level above based on the Virginia Standards of Learning. You say that “This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble.” Respectfully, I think you are confused; giftedness is something that happens “to” a child and hard work is “what” the child does. Neither of those two things are going to guarantee success; however, I would suggest that since statistically there are very few “gifted” people in this world…most people who are considered successful had to work hard to get to where they are. Please re-read the last sentence again’ “Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.” The original post was “should AAP demographics represent FCPS as a whole” and what I am saying is that it can better represent the FCPS demographics if FCPS provided a more challenging curriculum at an earlier age. If we instill the work ethic in our kids at an early age and provide a challenging curriculum from the start…then GE would become AAP and AAP would become truly be a gifted and talented program for those few special kids who really need special GT services. Special services like for the 10 year old that should be taking a full complement of high school classes; I do not think the 6th or 7th grader that is taking Algebra 1 honors or Geometry by the rest of the worlds standards would be considered gifted. PP it’s low standards, low parent involvement, unmotivated teachers, blah blah blah that is what makes a terrible education system…not “hardworking” children.

[Anonymous]

PP, you don't make sense. No way could my DCs friend since KG complete ALG HN in 7th or 8th grade. The child has on paper a very equal life: white, umc, a SAHM, both parents are educated, but the friend is barely passing any of the gen Ed classes in middle school. My DC is straight As in AAP. There's a very good reason for offering gen Ed. There's a very good reason for offering AAP. There's a very good reason for offering honors. Kids are not all the same intellectually.

Keeping this logic, it's why we have JV and Varsity sports. Your logic is every kid deserves a Varsity letter. What?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SO...why the push-back of having ge, honors and aap beginning in 3rd grade. Keep aap for the high IQ kids, keep honors as open enrollment for the families that want their child to be afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material, and keep ge for the families that want their child in ge.

I DO NOT understand the push-back regarding this idea.

The push back is from parents who insist their kids should be in a special, "invitation-only" program. They think it sets their kids apart and they love the separateness, segregation, and (perceived) status of AAP. Their kids also get the benefit of being able to choose between their base school and the center - a choice the Gen Ed kids don't get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New Parent to FCPS and AAP. My DS went into AAP after spending the first 6 years (K-5) at a Dual Language Private School. We don’t consider our DS gifted…just a hard worker…works until he overcomes the challenge. The private school had most of the kids working at least 1 grade level above maybe 2 in some areas as part of the normal curriculum; it was not a gifted program but the teachers held the kids to high standards and the kids learned to meet those standards. Because high standards were part of the environment; the kids (and the parents) learned to adjust. Our DS first year in AAP was a review for most of the subjects. Was he gifted because he knew more than the other “gifted kids” who had been in the program since 3rd grade? No, he was just taught some the material before they were. Our DS speaks fluent French and is able to read, write and study each subject in French. Is he gifted? No, he was taught in two languages. Nothing more. The FCPS AAP is not a “gifted program” it is an advanced curriculum program where the material is about 1 year ahead; and the one year ahead is a normal curriculum that their peers will learn the following year. Nothing more. I think most kids would be able to do well in AAP if afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material early on…say starting in 1st grade. AAP is a good public school advanced academic school program but in no way is it a “Gifted Program.” I would guess that if you took a random 1st grade class made up of an appropriate representation of FCPS demographics (of average kids) and taught them advanced material…they would do just fine. Our DS is African American and I don’t really see what the big deal is with AAP. I see more parents on this board trying to bolster the prestige of the AAP program and how special their DC are by putting their kids test scores out here for public consumption. What I don’t see as much on this board is those very parents coming back to this board after their child doesn’t get into TJ or if they have to pull their kid out of AAP for whatever reason and talk about that. If this AAP board is going to be useful I would think that parents would be more inclined to post information that is going to help other parents assist their kids in being successful not only in the AAP program but in school and life. The less than diverse demographics in AAP is more opportunity and access than it is about how intelligent your child is. Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.

I think this is the most accurate, well-written post I've ever read here on the AAP forum. Bravo to you.

I agree with all of it except for the last sentence.

Not anyone can be successful at everything simply by virtue of "working hard." Really? Anyone who doesn't make the Olympics just didn't work hard enough? Anyone who doesn't become a best selling author just didn't work hard enough?

This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble. Everyone has to be treated like their outcomes can be equal. Equal opportunities do not guarantee equal outcomes.

You've missed the entire point, which is that AAP is not a gifted program. The curriculum is simply advanced by one year - something most kids could certainly do if given the opportunity. PP even suggested starting this in the 1st grade, so that ALL kids are ahead.

Certainly, not all kids are going to reach the same heights. But that goes for kids within AAP as well. Some kids are going to excel above and beyond any others - and that has nothing to do with being in AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New Parent to FCPS and AAP. My DS went into AAP after spending the first 6 years (K-5) at a Dual Language Private School. We don’t consider our DS gifted…just a hard worker…works until he overcomes the challenge. The private school had most of the kids working at least 1 grade level above maybe 2 in some areas as part of the normal curriculum; it was not a gifted program but the teachers held the kids to high standards and the kids learned to meet those standards. Because high standards were part of the environment; the kids (and the parents) learned to adjust. Our DS first year in AAP was a review for most of the subjects. Was he gifted because he knew more than the other “gifted kids” who had been in the program since 3rd grade? No, he was just taught some the material before they were. Our DS speaks fluent French and is able to read, write and study each subject in French. Is he gifted? No, he was taught in two languages. Nothing more. The FCPS AAP is not a “gifted program” it is an advanced curriculum program where the material is about 1 year ahead; and the one year ahead is a normal curriculum that their peers will learn the following year. Nothing more. I think most kids would be able to do well in AAP if afforded the opportunity to learn advanced material early on…say starting in 1st grade. AAP is a good public school advanced academic school program but in no way is it a “Gifted Program.” I would guess that if you took a random 1st grade class made up of an appropriate representation of FCPS demographics (of average kids) and taught them advanced material…they would do just fine. Our DS is African American and I don’t really see what the big deal is with AAP. I see more parents on this board trying to bolster the prestige of the AAP program and how special their DC are by putting their kids test scores out here for public consumption. What I don’t see as much on this board is those very parents coming back to this board after their child doesn’t get into TJ or if they have to pull their kid out of AAP for whatever reason and talk about that. If this AAP board is going to be useful I would think that parents would be more inclined to post information that is going to help other parents assist their kids in being successful not only in the AAP program but in school and life. The less than diverse demographics in AAP is more opportunity and access than it is about how intelligent your child is. Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.

I think this is the most accurate, well-written post I've ever read here on the AAP forum. Bravo to you.

I agree with all of it except for the last sentence.

Not anyone can be successful at everything simply by virtue of "working hard." Really? Anyone who doesn't make the Olympics just didn't work hard enough? Anyone who doesn't become a best selling author just didn't work hard enough?

This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble. Everyone has to be treated like their outcomes can be equal. Equal opportunities do not guarantee equal outcomes.

PP I guess that depends on your definition of success? If your definition of success is driven by a predetermined outcome (i.e., Making it to the Olympics or becoming a best-selling Author) which very few people in this world actually achieve, you may have a point. However, my definition of success for a child in AAP is a little less stringent; I believe that if a child is challenged they will work hard (some kids may need to work harder than others) to overcome that challenge. As parents we all know that life is a series of challenges that is sometimes interrupted by setbacks and momentary successes that are quickly replaced with a series of new challenges. The goal of education is to engaged and inspire kids to become more than they thought they could have been (often it takes loving and supportive parents and dedicated teachers), no matter how small or big the perceived outcome may be. I believe a child with average intelligence can learn math or any other subject one grade level above based on the Virginia Standards of Learning. You say that “This ridiculous canard that all kids can be gifted if they just work hard enough, have the right parents, blah blah blah is why our educational system is in trouble.” Respectfully, I think you are confused; giftedness is something that happens “to” a child and hard work is “what” the child does. Neither of those two things are going to guarantee success; however, I would suggest that since statistically there are very few “gifted” people in this world…most people who are considered successful had to work hard to get to where they are. Please re-read the last sentence again’ “Any hardworking child (regardless of demographics) can be successful in anything…including the FCPS AAP program.” The original post was “should AAP demographics represent FCPS as a whole” and what I am saying is that it can better represent the FCPS demographics if FCPS provided a more challenging curriculum at an earlier age. If we instill the work ethic in our kids at an early age and provide a challenging curriculum from the start…then GE would become AAP and AAP would become truly be a gifted and talented program for those few special kids who really need special GT services. Special services like for the 10 year old that should be taking a full complement of high school classes; I do not think the 6th or 7th grader that is taking Algebra 1 honors or Geometry by the rest of the worlds standards would be considered gifted. PP it’s low standards, low parent involvement, unmotivated teachers, blah blah blah that is what makes a terrible education system…not “hardworking” children.

AMEN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, you don't make sense. No way could my DCs friend since KG complete ALG HN in 7th or 8th grade. The child has on paper a very equal life: white, umc, a SAHM, both parents are educated, but the friend is barely passing any of the gen Ed classes in middle school. My DC is straight As in AAP. There's a very good reason for offering gen Ed. There's a very good reason for offering AAP. There's a very good reason for offering honors. Kids are not all the same intellectually.

Keeping this logic, it's why we have JV and Varsity sports. Your logic is every kid deserves a Varsity letter. What?

So because your daughter has one friend who is having trouble in school, you assume that EVERY child not in AAP would be unable to handle the curriculum? Respectfully, give me a break. You do know there are plenty of kids in AAP who do poorly, are struggling, have tutors, etc., right? The point is to let the kids and parents decide which level is right for them, perhaps with teacher input - but leave the decision up to the families. If it doesn't work out, they could always switch to the next level. Why pigeonhole one entire group of kids into taking classes deemed the "right" level for them, without anyone really knowing what they're capable of?

We all have anecdotes, and I certainly know of AAP kids like the ones I just described. Not everyone belongs in AAP, just as not everyone belongs stuck in GE. Thankfully, by high school all this nonsense ends and the kids and parents can make the right choices for themselves.

[Anonymous]

You've missed the entire point, which is that AAP is not a gifted program. The curriculum is simply advanced by one year - something most kids could certainly do if given the opportunity. PP even suggested starting this in the 1st grade, so that ALL kids are ahead.

Certainly, not all kids are going to reach the same heights. But that goes for kids within AAP as well. Some kids are going to excel above and beyond any others - and that has nothing to do with being in AAP.

I can tell your mind is made up. But for anyone else listening, the AAP curriculum is not simply the same curriculum advanced by one year. At least not from our experience. If that's all there was to it, there would not be so many people howling about not being part of it. This is just the kind of misinformed belief one would expect to follow the constant hater drumbeat that AAP is "not a gifted program."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You've missed the entire point, which is that AAP is not a gifted program. The curriculum is simply advanced by one year - something most kids could certainly do if given the opportunity. PP even suggested starting this in the 1st grade, so that ALL kids are ahead.

Certainly, not all kids are going to reach the same heights. But that goes for kids within AAP as well. Some kids are going to excel above and beyond any others - and that has nothing to do with being in AAP.

I can tell your mind is made up. But for anyone else listening, the AAP curriculum is not simply the same curriculum advanced by one year. At least not from our experience. If that's all there was to it, there would not be so many people howling about not being part of it. This is just the kind of misinformed belief one would expect to follow the constant hater drumbeat that AAP is "not a gifted program."

+1

It's just easier to ignore their ignorance, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, you don't make sense. No way could my DCs friend since KG complete ALG HN in 7th or 8th grade. The child has on paper a very equal life: white, umc, a SAHM, both parents are educated, but the friend is barely passing any of the gen Ed classes in middle school. My DC is straight As in AAP. There's a very good reason for offering gen Ed. There's a very good reason for offering AAP. There's a very good reason for offering honors. Kids are not all the same intellectually.

Keeping this logic, it's why we have JV and Varsity sports. Your logic is every kid deserves a Varsity letter. What?

So because your daughter has one friend who is having trouble in school, you assume that EVERY child not in AAP would be unable to handle the curriculum? Respectfully, give me a break. You do know there are plenty of kids in AAP who do poorly, are struggling, have tutors, etc., right? The point is to let the kids and parents decide which level is right for them, perhaps with teacher input - but leave the decision up to the families. If it doesn't work out, they could always switch to the next level. Why pigeonhole one entire group of kids into taking classes deemed the "right" level for them, without anyone really knowing what they're capable of?

We all have anecdotes, and I certainly know of AAP kids like the ones I just described. Not everyone belongs in AAP, just as not everyone belongs stuck in GE. Thankfully, by high school all this nonsense ends and the kids and parents can make the right choices for themselves.

We are actually in agreement as I have suggested offering gen Ed, honors and aap-for high IQ beginning in 3rd grade. AAP becomes more selective, parent self reger for honors or self select got gen Ed. This ideas gets push-back, though, and I am confused as to why.

[Anonymous]

And there you have it. A thread about whether more minorities should be in AAP turns into a thread of mostly non-minorities, I'm guessing, saying how the program should be restructured so that their kids will still benefit.

I agree with earlier posters who believe FCPS is bad at identifying giftedness and low SES and minority kids, while many more white and Asian families than probably should be are able to game their kids into the program.