Mount Vernon?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lee is under-enrolled. The last thing FCPS needs to be doing now is thinking about ways to pull more kids from single-family neighborhoods out of it.

People in Saratoga can huff and puff but they aren't getting moved to South County or West Springfield without someone else being moved into Lee, and whoever that would be almost surely paid more so they could live in a higher rated district.

I don't know if you've spent any time with Elizabeth Schultz, but I find it very, very difficult to see her willingly sending any of her Springfield District constituents off to Lee.

Saratoga residents are not her constituents. She doesn't represent us. Our school board rep. is the Mount Vernon district member - Karen Corbett Sanders

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be interested to know what the average White & Asian non-FARMS SAT scores are in Mt.Vernon & Lee vs west Springfield and West Potomac. Similar, or a significant gap?

Significant.

Interesting. What are Lee and Mt. Vernon doing wrong? I will say I love the IB option. In fact I have a kid who just decided to pupil place for IB next year. But to really take advantage of it, you need a certain type of student. Good writer. Self directed. Able to handle high level course work across all subject areas. Willing to deal with the extras that go with the full diploma. DC2 will almost certainly not pupil place for IB in a couple years because she is a pure STEM kid and hates to write. I think FCPS probably meant well, but did schools like Mt. Vernon, Lee & Stuart a disservice by putting IB there. Ideally, IB should be an open enrollment opt in only magnet program at 2-3 high schools. For example, just SLHS, Marshall and Robinson, which seem to be making it work. And transportation should be provided, like for TJ. Saying Lee kids have an AP option is BS if they can't work out the transportation.

The obvious thing is that South Lakes, Marshall and Robinson are IB schools surrounded almost entirely by AP schools, whereas the other IB schools (Stuart, Annandale, Lee, Edison and Mount Vernon) are all bunched together.

There's a limited demand for IB relative to AP. If you have an IB school surrounded by four AP schools, the numbers work out OK. If you have IB schools abutting or in close proximity to one another, they cannibalize the demand and often end with net pupil placements to AP schools (Mount Vernon to West Potomac/Hayfield, Lee to West Springfield, Annandale to Woodson, etc). It's not been a good model.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be interested to know what the average White & Asian non-FARMS SAT scores are in Mt.Vernon & Lee vs west Springfield and West Potomac. Similar, or a significant gap?

Significant.

Interesting. What are Lee and Mt. Vernon doing wrong? I will say I love the IB option. In fact I have a kid who just decided to pupil place for IB next year. But to really take advantage of it, you need a certain type of student. Good writer. Self directed. Able to handle high level course work across all subject areas. Willing to deal with the extras that go with the full diploma. DC2 will almost certainly not pupil place for IB in a couple years because she is a pure STEM kid and hates to write. I think FCPS probably meant well, but did schools like Mt. Vernon, Lee & Stuart a disservice by putting IB there. Ideally, IB should be an open enrollment opt in only magnet program at 2-3 high schools. For example, just SLHS, Marshall and Robinson, which seem to be making it work. And transportation should be provided, like for TJ. Saying Lee kids have an AP option is BS if they can't work out the transportation.

The obvious thing is that South Lakes, Marshall and Robinson are IB schools surrounded almost entirely by AP schools, whereas the other IB schools (Stuart, Annandale, Lee, Edison and Mount Vernon) are all bunched together.

There's a limited demand for IB relative to AP. If you have an IB school surrounded by four AP schools, the numbers work out OK. If you have IB schools abutting or in close proximity to one another, they cannibalize the demand and often end with net pupil placements to AP schools (Mount Vernon to West Potomac/Hayfield, Lee to West Springfield, Annandale to Woodson, etc). It's not been a good model.

That's pretty obvious. So why in the world does FCPS not pick one to make IB, convert the rest to AP and call it a day? Karen Garza has seemed very willing to make other big changes, like later start times and half day Mondays. Why is this not a no brainer? What is the argument in favor of all these IB schools in one area? Lee or Mt. Vernon might actually pull in high achieving kids if it was the only IB option in the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lee is under-enrolled. The last thing FCPS needs to be doing now is thinking about ways to pull more kids from single-family neighborhoods out of it.

People in Saratoga can huff and puff but they aren't getting moved to South County or West Springfield without someone else being moved into Lee, and whoever that would be almost surely paid more so they could live in a higher rated district.

I don't know if you've spent any time with Elizabeth Schultz, but I find it very, very difficult to see her willingly sending any of her Springfield District constituents off to Lee.

Saratoga residents are not her constituents. She doesn't represent us. Our school board rep. is the Mount Vernon district member - Karen Corbett Sanders

That may be the case, but no one is moving out of Lee unless someone else is moving into Lee at the same time, most likely from Springfield or another district. And those School Board members would have little incentive to humor Ms. Corbett-Sanders, because their constituents would not welcome a move to Lee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many families in Mt Vernon wiggle their way into West Potomac but it starts in elementary school. If families would quit trying to game the system, both the Mt Vernon and West Potomac pyramids would be stronger. West Potomac pyramid schools are overcrowded in large part due to families not staying in their pyramid.

How exactly? Via the Spanish-immersion program at Fort a Hunt ES? Or another reason?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be interested to know what the average White & Asian non-FARMS SAT scores are in Mt.Vernon & Lee vs west Springfield and West Potomac. Similar, or a significant gap?

Significant.

Interesting. What are Lee and Mt. Vernon doing wrong? I will say I love the IB option. In fact I have a kid who just decided to pupil place for IB next year. But to really take advantage of it, you need a certain type of student. Good writer. Self directed. Able to handle high level course work across all subject areas. Willing to deal with the extras that go with the full diploma. DC2 will almost certainly not pupil place for IB in a couple years because she is a pure STEM kid and hates to write. I think FCPS probably meant well, but did schools like Mt. Vernon, Lee & Stuart a disservice by putting IB there. Ideally, IB should be an open enrollment opt in only magnet program at 2-3 high schools. For example, just SLHS, Marshall and Robinson, which seem to be making it work. And transportation should be provided, like for TJ. Saying Lee kids have an AP option is BS if they can't work out the transportation.

The obvious thing is that South Lakes, Marshall and Robinson are IB schools surrounded almost entirely by AP schools, whereas the other IB schools (Stuart, Annandale, Lee, Edison and Mount Vernon) are all bunched together.

There's a limited demand for IB relative to AP. If you have an IB school surrounded by four AP schools, the numbers work out OK. If you have IB schools abutting or in close proximity to one another, they cannibalize the demand and often end with net pupil placements to AP schools (Mount Vernon to West Potomac/Hayfield, Lee to West Springfield, Annandale to Woodson, etc). It's not been a good model.

That's pretty obvious. So why in the world does FCPS not pick one to make IB, convert the rest to AP and call it a day? Karen Garza has seemed very willing to make other big changes, like later start times and half day Mondays. Why is this not a no brainer? What is the argument in favor of all these IB schools in one area? Lee or Mt. Vernon might actually pull in high achieving kids if it was the only IB option in the area.

There will always be some IB parents and teachers at the current IB schools who will say it's great and, since IB is more expensive than AP, that replacing IB with AP would be unfairly taking resources away from schools in poorer areas. In addition, the folks who've bought in AP districts already don't really care what happens to the IB schools, and the parents who can use IB as a means to pupil place their kids out of IB schools into AP schools with better reputations may not want their base schools changed back to AP. So the constituency in favor of what seems like a sensible change is smaller than one might expect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be interested to know what the average White & Asian non-FARMS SAT scores are in Mt.Vernon & Lee vs west Springfield and West Potomac. Similar, or a significant gap?

Significant.

Interesting. What are Lee and Mt. Vernon doing wrong? I will say I love the IB option. In fact I have a kid who just decided to pupil place for IB next year. But to really take advantage of it, you need a certain type of student. Good writer. Self directed. Able to handle high level course work across all subject areas. Willing to deal with the extras that go with the full diploma. DC2 will almost certainly not pupil place for IB in a couple years because she is a pure STEM kid and hates to write. I think FCPS probably meant well, but did schools like Mt. Vernon, Lee & Stuart a disservice by putting IB there. Ideally, IB should be an open enrollment opt in only magnet program at 2-3 high schools. For example, just SLHS, Marshall and Robinson, which seem to be making it work. And transportation should be provided, like for TJ. Saying Lee kids have an AP option is BS if they can't work out the transportation.

The obvious thing is that South Lakes, Marshall and Robinson are IB schools surrounded almost entirely by AP schools, whereas the other IB schools (Stuart, Annandale, Lee, Edison and Mount Vernon) are all bunched together.

There's a limited demand for IB relative to AP. If you have an IB school surrounded by four AP schools, the numbers work out OK. If you have IB schools abutting or in close proximity to one another, they cannibalize the demand and often end with net pupil placements to AP schools (Mount Vernon to West Potomac/Hayfield, Lee to West Springfield, Annandale to Woodson, etc). It's not been a good model.

That's pretty obvious. So why in the world does FCPS not pick one to make IB, convert the rest to AP and call it a day? Karen Garza has seemed very willing to make other big changes, like later start times and half day Mondays. Why is this not a no brainer? What is the argument in favor of all these IB schools in one area? Lee or Mt. Vernon might actually pull in high achieving kids if it was the only IB option in the area.

There will always be some IB parents and teachers at the current IB schools who will say it's great and, since IB is more expensive than AP, that replacing IB with AP would be unfairly taking resources away from schools in poorer areas. In addition, the folks who've bought in AP districts already don't really care what happens to the IB schools, and the parents who can use IB as a means to pupil place their kids out of IB schools into AP schools with better reputations may not want their base schools changed back to AP. So the constituency in favor of what seems like a sensible change is smaller than one might expect.

Oh FFS. I guess I can see where a lot of these arguments might be made. Except the resources one. IB is more expensive because it costs $ to join the IB schools consortium, and hire an IB coordinator, and IB test fees are higher than AP. But none of this really benefits students. It's not like IB class sizes are smaller, or IB schools get extra classroom teachers.

[Anonymous]

So if you live in a neighborhood like Saratoga you could pupil place into West Springfield for AP. Seems like a good way to avoid a bad school. Don't the people at Central office see through this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if you live in a neighborhood like Saratoga you could pupil place into West Springfield for AP. Seems like a good way to avoid a bad school. Don't the people at Central office see through this?

I could be wrong but I don't think they can pupil place to WSHS because of the renovations. Wouldn't it have to be LBSS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if you live in a neighborhood like Saratoga you could pupil place into West Springfield for AP. Seems like a good way to avoid a bad school. Don't the people at Central office see through this?

They could pupil place only if space is available. Currently WSHS is over capacity, so no.

[Anonymous]

That depends (I'm not sure on what). Dashboard shows SLHS as way over enrolled, but they are taking IB transfers in for 9th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if you live in a neighborhood like Saratoga you could pupil place into West Springfield for AP. Seems like a good way to avoid a bad school. Don't the people at Central office see through this?

I could be wrong but I don't think they can pupil place to WSHS because of the renovations. Wouldn't it have to be LBSS?

Yep, that's what a large number of Saratoga residents do - pupil place to Lake Braddock. And, since there is a bus that serves Saratoga because LBSS is their MS AAP center, they get free transportation too. The LBSS bus stop in Saratoga is quite large from what I've been told.

[Anonymous]

It is interesting that, with respect to Lee, all you see on this thread is people talking about why they shouldn't go there and how they get out of going there. If you canvass people at Falls Church and Stuart from the Saratoga-equivalents (Camelot and Fairhill areas in Falls Church district, Sleepy Hollow/Lake Barcroft in the Stuart district), you'd find people who are involved with the schools and trying to make them better. The Mason District Parents page on Facebook is one example.

It just sounds like people are checked out when it comes to Mount Vernon and Lee these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if you live in a neighborhood like Saratoga you could pupil place into West Springfield for AP. Seems like a good way to avoid a bad school. Don't the people at Central office see through this?

I could be wrong but I don't think they can pupil place to WSHS because of the renovations. Wouldn't it have to be LBSS?

Yep, that's what a large number of Saratoga residents do - pupil place to Lake Braddock. And, since there is a bus that serves Saratoga because LBSS is their MS AAP center, they get free transportation too. The LBSS bus stop in Saratoga is quite large from what I've been told.

They will.lose the bus service when fcps finishes expanding AAP to every middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is interesting that, with respect to Lee, all you see on this thread is people talking about why they shouldn't go there and how they get out of going there. If you canvass people at Falls Church and Stuart from the Saratoga-equivalents (Camelot and Fairhill areas in Falls Church district, Sleepy Hollow/Lake Barcroft in the Stuart district), you'd find people who are involved with the schools and trying to make them better. The Mason District Parents page on Facebook is one example.

It just sounds like people are checked out when it comes to Mount Vernon and Lee these days.

It is a little comical though that one would buy a house that is $50-100K cheaper than the neighboring districts, knowing when you bought the cheaper price is because of the high school, then start complaining that your kids are zoned for the high school that made your home so much cheaper and trying to get your kids moved into the neighboring district that you didn't want to pay for (or sacrifice house size or quality for).

The Saratoga zoning issue is NOT an issue of poor people being trapped or minority/esl families being shuttled off to one place.

That neighborhood is generally the exact same SES status as the WSHS feeders, mostly feds and military level incomes that could afford WSHS neighborhoods if they wanted to. Tuey just made a diffeeent choice of more house for the money, knowing their school assignment. They chose a trade off and others chose a more expensive/smaller house for more money to get zoned for WSHS.

They should focus on trying to improve their zoned school (Lee) that they chose.

We are not talking about the families that feed into Garfield Elementary. We are talking about upper middle class families that made a choice.