Distrust of Atheists

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist, I am not surprised by this study. People are generally shocked to find out I don't believe in god, and tell me things like, "But you're such a nice person." I do think that most Americans equate belief in god or participation in an organized religion with morality.

The reason I became an atheist is because I grew up christian and about 50% of the people in my church were awful people most of the time. Now don't get me wrong, I don't in any way think all christians are this way, but the fact that these "Sunday christians" were so willing to be terrible people and then come to church and raise their voices the loudest (and with the most judgment) made me question the faith.

Not only that, but the church's more literalist beliefs (in e.g., 2 Timothy wrt women's role in culture), seemed bizarre in a modern world with gender equality. Also, to restate what a few PPs have discussed, it was the teaching of my former church that a murderer who underwent a deathbed conversion would go to heaven, but that anyone who didn't accept Jesus as their personal savior and confess their sins (e.g., atheists, people who believed other religions, people in isolated cultures who had never heard of Judeo-Christianity) would go directly to hell, regardless of the decency of their lives. Years of this sort of dissonance between the church's teachings and my own personal views on morality led to me questioning and eventually renouncing my faith.

I do personally think that humans are predisposed to religious thinking due to brain anatomy, so I don't think less of people who believe in god. However, I do not in any capacity believe they are more moral or good people than those who do not believe in god.

But PP, don't you realize that idea--that God would "accidentally" let bad people party in heaven while good people were tortured for all eternity--is not a reason to not believe in God? Don't know you that most Christians throughout history would find such a belief abhorrent, and directly contradicted by Jesus' words, not to mention reason and logic?

Put aside those childhood memories and ask the big questions: where did this all come from? Doesn't creation have a Creator? Someone who set everything in motion? Who is this Creator? How do we have the ability to reason? Who gave us that ability? Who was Jesus, really? When did Christianity start to splinter, and why? Does ancient Christian theology make sense--is it reasonable? Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

Ask the big questions, and don't trip up over bad theology. And you'll find God. Because He is Truth itself.

Sorry, PP. I am the PP you are responding to. I addressed only the morality- and ethics-related reasons I became disillusioned with and broke with religion.

I am a scientist by training, and I have asked myself all of those questions. I do not believe in "creation", and I think it's a logical fallacy to believe that a deity is responsible for the existence of the universe. I studied physics and chemistry, but I am somewhat of a biology enthusiast, and I can tell you, I think that the idea that some big guy in the sky is cranking out people and animals for our little blue-green marble is pretty far from "truth."

Rather, my personal reflection led me to find that: 1. there is no afterlife, because life depends on the physical body, 2. the laws of physics and cause and effect dictate what will happen in our universe, 3. People can't understand the universe because we did not evolve to need to understand the universe, that said, we are capable of empirical thought and reason, and through those, our knowledge of the world and universe can come closer to being complete (e.g., a sort of Pragmatic Peirce-inspired idea of scientific thought), 4. As I said above, the brain is a weird and wonderful thing, but it's evolved some interesting ways of dealing with reality, insofar as humans have structures within the parietal lobe that seem to dictate their level of spirituality and belief in religion. This means some people will believe and others won't, and some believers will be stronger in their beliefs. It also means that believers are not always capable of understanding that non-believers are valid in their thoughts and views (as belief holds an element of biological determination and is therefore not always something people can put aside for empathy's sake).

So, no, I will not ever find god. But in its absence, I've found a lot of very meaningful and beautiful things in the real world instead.

PP, I appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable reservations about the existence of God. And I wish so much we could sit down over tea and discuss these ideas thoroughly...but I need to bring my kids to the dentist, and we are limited to this anonymous forum...

But quickly, your comment about the big guy in the sky shows that you are still somewhat influenced and perhaps limited by childish ideas of Who God is, what God is like. He's not a bearded old man. He's not like any myth or legend. God is our name for the Unmoved Mover. He is absolutely consistent with all our knowledge about physics and empirical thought and reason, because He created those things--He is the author of them. He is the reason for laws of physics, because He made them. His existence is reasonable and knowable, but also mysterious, because we are limited beings and He is unlimited; we exist in time and He is outside of time; we began and He has no beginning or end; we are finite and He is infinite.

He has revealed some things about Himself to us through our reason (such as Aquinas' five proofs for His existence), and He has also revealed some truths about Himself throughout history (the one most meaningful to me personally is that God is a communion of persons, a Trinity), and He has written His Word on our hearts, so He is always with us. So there is always hope for all of us, that we will get to know Him in this life.

What I hear in your words is a great deal of knowledge about Him already. You find things meaningful, ordered, and beautiful. Those are value judgments you have made. Those indicate you are able to make distinctions between order and disorder, beauty and ugliness, meaning and mere existence. The ability to make such choices is integral to our humanity. Therein lies our free will. And all of those aspects of your existence celebrate and reveal God to you.

The greatest scientists the world has ever known found their Creator through their work. God made you, so He knows how to find you--He already has, always has. Maybe someday, you'll find Him right back.

PP, I agree that you sound like a nice person who would be fun to sit down to tea with (a tea person! yay! I'm not a coffee drinker ).

I think it's admirable that you are very invested in your faith, and see it in everything you value in the world. I'm the same way in my non-belief, though -- when I think about the tiny, nearly infinitesimal amount of time people have, I also am deeply moved by goodness, order, and beauty. I just draw a different conclusion about where these values come from (to me, our morality is informed by what we are -- short-lived mortal beings whose time is finite -- if we were indestructible and immortal, for example, our morality and what we found beautiful or good would undoubtedly be very different) and what makes them meaningful. But I think we both agree that there is much to appreciate and love in the world.

The one thing I take issue with is your characterization of my ideas about God as being childish. I'll admit to throwing out a goofy line about god in my previous post, but I can assure you that I've studied the Bible in depth, and at the time I decided to become an atheist, I did not merely think "well, I don't think there's this dude with a beard in the sky, so that's that." I attended services for almost two decades, and when I decided, almost two decades ago, that I did not believe in any higher power, it was not without long, careful introspection and study. As I said, I'm a scientist and I have accepted my own ways of understanding the world (based mostly on Pragmatism and empiricism, with a splash of good old Occam's razor thrown in). I would never dream of telling you that you will become an atheist if you think about god enough, so I'm a little put off that you assume I've come to my (lack of) religious beliefs because I have not committed to thinking about the issue. That said, I do think you have a lot of integrity -- I just think sometimes that those who believe in god tend to assume that their truth is universal, whereas I admit freely that my truth is personal (but is 100% the best truth for me).

That said, I agree with PP who mentioned that the laws of physics are not "universal", but again, as a Pragmatist, I think we can only ever know -- closely enough -- the laws of physics of that part of the universe that's observable (i.e., our part), anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the Bible is that it is open to interpretation. In many instances the truth is what you make it to be. So how is that different than an atheist who decides how to proceed?

Oh, this is easy: many religious folks *know* they've got the Truth in their back pocket. Whereas atheists realize we're all just making it up as we go along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

That is completely ignorant and very misleading. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes (literal or otherwise). Why would you feel that in order for others to cope with difficult situations they have to agree with you first? Doesn't that seem a bit egocentric to you?

Do you even know who Ernie Pyle was? You sound very angry and bitter. You also have a problem with comprehension.

Pretty funny, I'm guessing the PP here who's doing the psychoanalyzing is one of our "respectful Christians" who always complains about the "ranting atheists".

Anyway, it's a good example of how one can be a total fucking douchebag without stooping to use potty-words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't read the link, but I always found it remarkable that someone could do evil things like rape and murder, but ask for god's forgiveness on a deathbed, whereupon all the jugdemental fundies will pass the evil dude right onto heaven. Meanwhile, the athiest dies with a lifetime of good works has no chance. That is why I would not be surprised at the outcome of trusting a rapist over an athiest.

The belief you cite is held by a small offshoot of Christianity: the notion that once you are "saved" by professing belief in Christ, you are set, no matter what you do. Or, as an alternative, that God has His "elect," and everyone else was created for damnation. And also the idea that it is heaven or hell at the moment of death. Those beliefs are in the vast minority, and not compatible with reason.

Salvation is about choosing to align one's free will with God's will, for all eternity. God created all humans to be with Him forever, if we so chose. But He gave us free will, the ability to choose to be apart from Him forever. So He doesn't "send" anyone to Hell. We choose Hell. In Hell, we experience God's eternal love, just as those who chose to be close to Him do--but His love feels awful, even torturous, because we want no part of it. The Great Divorce does a great job explaining these theological concepts; I can't recommend it highly enough.

God made salvation possible through His love; none of us "deserve" salvation, but all of us can choose salvation, by the grace of God. However, God is also perfectly just. So every single person will face justice as we enter eternity, and God, only God, will judge our hearts, exactly where we were. So it doesn't matter if you never heard the name of Jesus Christ on this earth. He is a man who lived in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, but he is also the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God wrote His Word on our hearts, and we will be judged according to our personal culpability.

So the "noble savage," or the "good pagan," will know God for eternity, because s/he already has known and loved God here, while the Pharisee and the hypocrite and the self-loving will have a hard time. Not necessarily damnation, but most certainly a period of cleansing, of redemption, as the soul is made clean, to be perfect as God is perfect.

As for the original article cited, it strikes me as quite flawed, in so many ways, just done to stir up a sensationalist headline.

I appreciate your more nuanced language, but I still see that a converted murderer has a higher value in God's eyes than the nobel atheist. Someone in an earlier post said that atheist's don't have moral codes even if they live honorably. Well, what good is a more code if you don't really have to follow it all the time? Christianity seems to place a higher value on your selected belief team, rather than on following the code of the team. That's fine, but it creates some hairy situations for your team. Good luck with all the death row inmates you find in heaven. Hopefully, they will behave better in heaven than they did here.

This is an excellent point: It's funny, this is exactly the sort of bet-hedging you'd expect to see if you created a religion out of whole cloth with the intention of maximizing your number of converts. "Come to Church, make your 'offering', don't worry about all the sinning and such, that stuff doesn't matter, just as long as you stay a member."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the atheist you're responding to, PP, but it appears your logic is this:

I assume I am right and I, above everyone else,knows the truth
I assume we were created and there is a creation therefore there must be a creator
I believe in my concept of the creator which happens to be my god
Therefore my concept of god is "the truth"

I hope you see the flaws in that. If not, I don't trust your ideas of good vs bad theology. Your logic could be applied to any concept of god... Or to aliens, pink unicorns, and space monkeys.

None of the above is valid.

Creation indicates a beginning. The laws of physics indicate an Unmoved Mover.

The definition of God is a Supreme Being, so by definition, there can only be one. Absolute truth is inherently exclusionary, because X does not and cannot equal -X. But God and His own truth are not possessed by the few; again, by definition, they transcend all, are universally applicable, to all people at all times, just like the laws of physics.

There is no way I, a limited and finite human being, can know everything, because I am not God. It does not follow that there is no such thing as God.

If that statement is true, then God probably does not exist. In quantum physics, things exist in two opposing states at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

I'm not the original PP you're all slamming, but ... you guys have totally taken her post, blown it all out of proportion, deliberately misinterpreted it, and then insulted her about 10 different ways.

I don't know why people distrust atheists. But I can sure see why some people dislike them!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

I'm not the original PP you're all slamming, but ... you guys have totally taken her post, blown it all out of proportion, deliberately misinterpreted it, and then insulted her about 10 different ways.

I don't know why people distrust atheists. But I can sure see why some people dislike them!

Oh, and hey -- how come you guys keep calling her "persecuted Christian lady" when she says nothing about feeling persecuted herself, but one of you started this whole thread to be a pity party for you poor, distrusted atheists?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

I'm not the original PP you're all slamming, but ... you guys have totally taken her post, blown it all out of proportion, deliberately misinterpreted it, and then insulted her about 10 different ways.

I don't know why people distrust atheists. But I can sure see why some people dislike them!

Oh, and hey -- how come you guys keep calling her "persecuted Christian lady" when she says nothing about feeling persecuted herself, but one of you started this whole thread to be a pity party for you poor, distrusted atheists?

I'm Catholic and I can't stand that persecuted Christian thing. It makes us look bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

I'm not the original PP you're all slamming, but ... you guys have totally taken her post, blown it all out of proportion, deliberately misinterpreted it, and then insulted her about 10 different ways.

I don't know why people distrust atheists. But I can sure see why some people dislike them!

Oh, and hey -- how come you guys keep calling her "persecuted Christian lady" when she says nothing about feeling persecuted herself, but one of you started this whole thread to be a pity party for you poor, distrusted atheists?

I'm Catholic and I can't stand that persecuted Christian thing. It makes us look bad.

But look who's using it - two atheists in the quote string above. The first PP never said she felt "persecuted."

That's quite often the case on DCUM - whenever a Christian explains or defends herself, certain atheists like these guys start shrieking "persecution complex!"

Point is - the atheists here are using it to make Christians look bad, although it's not always justified. This thread being a good case in point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
...

PP, I appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable reservations about the existence of God. And I wish so much we could sit down over tea and discuss these ideas thoroughly...but I need to bring my kids to the dentist, and we are limited to this anonymous forum...

But quickly, your comment about the big guy in the sky shows that you are still somewhat influenced and perhaps limited by childish ideas of Who God is, what God is like. He's not a bearded old man. He's not like any myth or legend. God is our name for the Unmoved Mover. He is absolutely consistent with all our knowledge about physics and empirical thought and reason, because He created those things--He is the author of them. He is the reason for laws of physics, because He made them. His existence is reasonable and knowable, but also mysterious, because we are limited beings and He is unlimited; we exist in time and He is outside of time; we began and He has no beginning or end; we are finite and He is infinite.

He has revealed some things about Himself to us through our reason (such as Aquinas' five proofs for His existence), and He has also revealed some truths about Himself throughout history (the one most meaningful to me personally is that God is a communion of persons, a Trinity), and He has written His Word on our hearts, so He is always with us. So there is always hope for all of us, that we will get to know Him in this life.

What I hear in your words is a great deal of knowledge about Him already. You find things meaningful, ordered, and beautiful. Those are value judgments you have made. Those indicate you are able to make distinctions between order and disorder, beauty and ugliness, meaning and mere existence. The ability to make such choices is integral to our humanity. Therein lies our free will. And all of those aspects of your existence celebrate and reveal God to you.

The greatest scientists the world has ever known found their Creator through their work. God made you, so He knows how to find you--He already has, always has. Maybe someday, you'll find Him right back.

New poster here.

So, I've enjoyed reading your debate with the physicist. I'm an agnostic myself, and can get on board with your argument on the existence of a god insomuch as there is "something" or a "truth" that is out there. I refer to it as "the universe." However, I don't see where the logical leap that there is a god/truth/whatever leads to the Christian experience as outlined in the Bible.

[Anonymous]

Hey PPs, enough being sad about complaining about complaining about persecution, ok? We get it, you've got hurt feelings.

Now let's get back to our grown-up conversation, ok?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, that study doesn't seem very scientific. Subjects were told to choose between "teacher", "atheist teacher", and "rapist teacher". Those were the only choices given, and I'm assuming they were told they must select one. Sorry, but I can't give this study any credit whatsoever. I hope it wasn't government funded- I'd be pretty annoyed if my tax dollars went to pay for that one when there are a lot more important research questions out there.

The study was not limited to those 3 options. No matter the options, the atheists were consistently chosen as the least trustworthy. You can find the study online.

Please show me where. All I can find is the abstract (without purchasing the article):

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=browsePA.volumes&jcode=psp

http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Gervais%20et%20al-%20Atheist%20Distrust.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Hey PPs, enough being sad about complaining about complaining about persecution, ok? We get it, you've got hurt feelings.

Now let's get back to our grown-up conversation, ok?

I take it that was for the benefit of the poor atheists who feel so distrusted....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

And the persecuted Christian reveals her true colors yet again. Calls all athiests angry, but comes out with a mean statement like this. Being an athiest doesn't mean being an anti-christian or anti-religionist. Athiests don't demand that you come over to our point of view, but also ask that you don't demand that we validate your religious faith.

Spot on. Persecuted Christian has got to be the most passive-aggressive, priggish, hateful, sanctimonious prig I've encountered on DCUM. And yet...no potty-words. So it's all good.

Hey Persecuted Christian lady! Jesus sees into your heart. And he doesn't like what he sees.

I'm not the original PP you're all slamming, but ... you guys have totally taken her post, blown it all out of proportion, deliberately misinterpreted it, and then insulted her about 10 different ways.

I don't know why people distrust atheists. But I can sure see why some people dislike them!

Oh, and hey -- how come you guys keep calling her "persecuted Christian lady" when she says nothing about feeling persecuted herself, but one of you started this whole thread to be a pity party for you poor, distrusted atheists?

I'm Catholic and I can't stand that persecuted Christian thing. It makes us look bad.

But look who's using it - two atheists in the quote string above. The first PP never said she felt "persecuted."

That's quite often the case on DCUM - whenever a Christian explains or defends herself, certain atheists like these guys start shrieking "persecution complex!"

Point is - the atheists here are using it to make Christians look bad, although it's not always justified. This thread being a good case in point.

Yrah but it's not the atheists who write about "catholic bashing" or "anti-Christian". Face it there are a lot if posters who do that, which "gives us a bad name" and by that I mean it reflects badly on the innocent among us.