Yrah but it's not the atheists who write about "catholic bashing" or "anti-Christian". Face it there are a lot if posters who do that, which "gives us a bad name" and by that I mean it reflects badly on the innocent among us.
It's an interesting question. I'm not catholic myself, but I think "catholic bashing" is a pretty accurate label for what goes on here.
I also recognize that sleazy old debating tactic, the ad hominem attack, in the many of the posts that respond with "you have a persecution complex!" It's a pretty standard tactic. But I don't think it's manifesting a persecution complex to threads that bash catholics ... "catholic bashing." It's just stating a fact, in my non-catholic opinion.
Yup, it's like a big game of "gotcha!" I'll insult you, then when you call me on my bad behavior, I'll say you have a persecution complex. Some atheists are really good at this.
Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.
Atheist and cancer survivor here. In my dark hours, I sure hoped that I would live to bring up my children, but no, I didn't pray.
I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.
I'm a Christian but I don't get why you think a 'true' atheist would tell people not to pray for them. they may think it is a pointless exercise but usually out of appreciation for people being caring and out of being polite I would expect an atheist to just say Thank you. I don't believe in 'vibes' but if someone says I am sending good vibes your way, I just say Thank you - not please don't.
Yeah 'cause you live in reality.
Yes, I do...but apparently a different one than you! Although I am not sure what living in reality has to do with an atheist's response to a friend mentioning prayer.
Meant that you do live in reality and the other PP (bold) does not!
Anonymous wrote:I do personally think that humans are predisposed to religious thinking due to brain anatomy, so I don't think less of people who believe in god. However, I do not in any capacity believe they are more moral or good people than those who do not believe in god.
Anonymous wrote:As an atheist, I am not surprised by this study. People are generally shocked to find out I don't believe in god, and tell me things like, "But you're such a nice person." I do think that most Americans equate belief in god or participation in an organized religion with morality.
The reason I became an atheist is because I grew up christian and about 50% of the people in my church were awful people most of the time. Now don't get me wrong, I don't in any way think all christians are this way, but the fact that these "Sunday christians" were so willing to be terrible people and then come to church and raise their voices the loudest (and with the most judgment) made me question the faith.
Not only that, but the church's more literalist beliefs (in e.g., 2 Timothy wrt women's role in culture), seemed bizarre in a modern world with gender equality. Also, to restate what a few PPs have discussed, it was the teaching of my former church that a murderer who underwent a deathbed conversion would go to heaven, but that anyone who didn't accept Jesus as their personal savior and confess their sins (e.g., atheists, people who believed other religions, people in isolated cultures who had never heard of Judeo-Christianity) would go directly to hell, regardless of the decency of their lives. Years of this sort of dissonance between the church's teachings and my own personal views on morality led to me questioning and eventually renouncing my faith.
I do personally think that humans are predisposed to religious thinking due to brain anatomy, so I don't think less of people who believe in god. However, I do not in any capacity believe they are more moral or good people than those who do not believe in god.
But PP, don't you realize that idea--that God would "accidentally" let bad people party in heaven while good people were tortured for all eternity--is not a reason to not believe in God? Don't know you that most Christians throughout history would find such a belief abhorrent, and directly contradicted by Jesus' words, not to mention reason and logic?
Put aside those childhood memories and ask the big questions: where did this all come from? Doesn't creation have a Creator? Someone who set everything in motion? Who is this Creator? How do we have the ability to reason? Who gave us that ability? Who was Jesus, really? When did Christianity start to splinter, and why? Does ancient Christian theology make sense--is it reasonable? Is there such a thing as right and wrong?
Ask the big questions, and don't trip up over bad theology. And you'll find God. Because He is Truth itself.
Sorry, PP. I am the PP you are responding to. I addressed only the morality- and ethics-related reasons I became disillusioned with and broke with religion.
I am a scientist by training, and I have asked myself all of those questions. I do not believe in "creation", and I think it's a logical fallacy to believe that a deity is responsible for the existence of the universe. I studied physics and chemistry, but I am somewhat of a biology enthusiast, and I can tell you, I think that the idea that some big guy in the sky is cranking out people and animals for our little blue-green marble is pretty far from "truth."
Rather, my personal reflection led me to find that: 1. there is no afterlife, because life depends on the physical body, 2. the laws of physics and cause and effect dictate what will happen in our universe, 3. People can't understand the universe because we did not evolve to need to understand the universe, that said, we are capable of empirical thought and reason, and through those, our knowledge of the world and universe can come closer to being complete (e.g., a sort of Pragmatic Peirce-inspired idea of scientific thought), 4. As I said above, the brain is a weird and wonderful thing, but it's evolved some interesting ways of dealing with reality, insofar as humans have structures within the parietal lobe that seem to dictate their level of spirituality and belief in religion. This means some people will believe and others won't, and some believers will be stronger in their beliefs. It also means that believers are not always capable of understanding that non-believers are valid in their thoughts and views (as belief holds an element of biological determination and is therefore not always something people can put aside for empathy's sake).
So, no, I will not ever find god. But in its absence, I've found a lot of very meaningful and beautiful things in the real world instead.
PP, I appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable reservations about the existence of God. And I wish so much we could sit down over tea and discuss these ideas thoroughly...but I need to bring my kids to the dentist, and we are limited to this anonymous forum...
But quickly, your comment about the big guy in the sky shows that you are still somewhat influenced and perhaps limited by childish ideas of Who God is, what God is like. He's not a bearded old man. He's not like any myth or legend. God is our name for the Unmoved Mover. He is absolutely consistent with all our knowledge about physics and empirical thought and reason, because He created those things--He is the author of them. He is the reason for laws of physics, because He made them. His existence is reasonable and knowable, but also mysterious, because we are limited beings and He is unlimited; we exist in time and He is outside of time; we began and He has no beginning or end; we are finite and He is infinite.
He has revealed some things about Himself to us through our reason (such as Aquinas' five proofs for His existence), and He has also revealed some truths about Himself throughout history (the one most meaningful to me personally is that God is a communion of persons, a Trinity), and He has written His Word on our hearts, so He is always with us. So there is always hope for all of us, that we will get to know Him in this life.
What I hear in your words is a great deal of knowledge about Him already. You find things meaningful, ordered, and beautiful. Those are value judgments you have made. Those indicate you are able to make distinctions between order and disorder, beauty and ugliness, meaning and mere existence. The ability to make such choices is integral to our humanity. Therein lies our free will. And all of those aspects of your existence celebrate and reveal God to you.
The greatest scientists the world has ever known found their Creator through their work. God made you, so He knows how to find you--He already has, always has. Maybe someday, you'll find Him right back.
PP, I agree that you sound like a nice person who would be fun to sit down to tea with (a tea person! yay! I'm not a coffee drinker ).
I think it's admirable that you are very invested in your faith, and see it in everything you value in the world. I'm the same way in my non-belief, though -- when I think about the tiny, nearly infinitesimal amount of time people have, I also am deeply moved by goodness, order, and beauty. I just draw a different conclusion about where these values come from (to me, our morality is informed by what we are -- short-lived mortal beings whose time is finite -- if we were indestructible and immortal, for example, our morality and what we found beautiful or good would undoubtedly be very different) and what makes them meaningful. But I think we both agree that there is much to appreciate and love in the world.
The one thing I take issue with is your characterization of my ideas about God as being childish. I'll admit to throwing out a goofy line about god in my previous post, but I can assure you that I've studied the Bible in depth, and at the time I decided to become an atheist, I did not merely think "well, I don't think there's this dude with a beard in the sky, so that's that." I attended services for almost two decades, and when I decided, almost two decades ago, that I did not believe in any higher power, it was not without long, careful introspection and study. As I said, I'm a scientist and I have accepted my own ways of understanding the world (based mostly on Pragmatism and empiricism, with a splash of good old Occam's razor thrown in). I would never dream of telling you that you will become an atheist if you think about god enough, so I'm a little put off that you assume I've come to my (lack of) religious beliefs because I have not committed to thinking about the issue. That said, I do think you have a lot of integrity -- I just think sometimes that those who believe in god tend to assume that their truth is universal, whereas I admit freely that my truth is personal (but is 100% the best truth for me).
That said, I agree with PP who mentioned that the laws of physics are not "universal", but again, as a Pragmatist, I think we can only ever know -- closely enough -- the laws of physics of that part of the universe that's observable (i.e., our part), anyway.
My friend, first things first: so glad I stumbled across another tea drinker!
Second, I'm terrible at texting, and all I have right now is my phone, after a long day. So this is a conversation that must wait for another time--eternity, perhaps?
But I did not want to go to sleep without assuring you I meant no disrespect at all--I am sure you have thought deeply, and I took too much away from your casual comment. I am an adult revert, who came back to my faith after much drama, so I have nothing but respect for those who, like myself, search sincerely for truth.
Anonymous wrote:OP, that study doesn't seem very scientific. Subjects were told to choose between "teacher", "atheist teacher", and "rapist teacher". Those were the only choices given, and I'm assuming they were told they must select one. Sorry, but I can't give this study any credit whatsoever. I hope it wasn't government funded- I'd be pretty annoyed if my tax dollars went to pay for that one when there are a lot more important research questions out there.
The study was not limited to those 3 options. No matter the options, the atheists were consistently chosen as the least trustworthy. You can find the study online.
Please show me where. All I can find is the abstract (without purchasing the article):
Anonymous wrote:As an atheist, I am not surprised by this study. People are generally shocked to find out I don't believe in god, and tell me things like, "But you're such a nice person." I do think that most Americans equate belief in god or participation in an organized religion with morality.
The reason I became an atheist is because I grew up christian and about 50% of the people in my church were awful people most of the time. Now don't get me wrong, I don't in any way think all christians are this way, but the fact that these "Sunday christians" were so willing to be terrible people and then come to church and raise their voices the loudest (and with the most judgment) made me question the faith.
Not only that, but the church's more literalist beliefs (in e.g., 2 Timothy wrt women's role in culture), seemed bizarre in a modern world with gender equality. Also, to restate what a few PPs have discussed, it was the teaching of my former church that a murderer who underwent a deathbed conversion would go to heaven, but that anyone who didn't accept Jesus as their personal savior and confess their sins (e.g., atheists, people who believed other religions, people in isolated cultures who had never heard of Judeo-Christianity) would go directly to hell, regardless of the decency of their lives. Years of this sort of dissonance between the church's teachings and my own personal views on morality led to me questioning and eventually renouncing my faith.
I do personally think that humans are predisposed to religious thinking due to brain anatomy, so I don't think less of people who believe in god. However, I do not in any capacity believe they are more moral or good people than those who do not believe in god.
But PP, don't you realize that idea--that God would "accidentally" let bad people party in heaven while good people were tortured for all eternity--is not a reason to not believe in God? Don't know you that most Christians throughout history would find such a belief abhorrent, and directly contradicted by Jesus' words, not to mention reason and logic?
Put aside those childhood memories and ask the big questions: where did this all come from? Doesn't creation have a Creator? Someone who set everything in motion? Who is this Creator? How do we have the ability to reason? Who gave us that ability? Who was Jesus, really? When did Christianity start to splinter, and why? Does ancient Christian theology make sense--is it reasonable? Is there such a thing as right and wrong?
Ask the big questions, and don't trip up over bad theology. And you'll find God. Because He is Truth itself.
Sorry, PP. I am the PP you are responding to. I addressed only the morality- and ethics-related reasons I became disillusioned with and broke with religion.
I am a scientist by training, and I have asked myself all of those questions. I do not believe in "creation", and I think it's a logical fallacy to believe that a deity is responsible for the existence of the universe. I studied physics and chemistry, but I am somewhat of a biology enthusiast, and I can tell you, I think that the idea that some big guy in the sky is cranking out people and animals for our little blue-green marble is pretty far from "truth."
Rather, my personal reflection led me to find that: 1. there is no afterlife, because life depends on the physical body, 2. the laws of physics and cause and effect dictate what will happen in our universe, 3. People can't understand the universe because we did not evolve to need to understand the universe, that said, we are capable of empirical thought and reason, and through those, our knowledge of the world and universe can come closer to being complete (e.g., a sort of Pragmatic Peirce-inspired idea of scientific thought), 4. As I said above, the brain is a weird and wonderful thing, but it's evolved some interesting ways of dealing with reality, insofar as humans have structures within the parietal lobe that seem to dictate their level of spirituality and belief in religion. This means some people will believe and others won't, and some believers will be stronger in their beliefs. It also means that believers are not always capable of understanding that non-believers are valid in their thoughts and views (as belief holds an element of biological determination and is therefore not always something people can put aside for empathy's sake).
So, no, I will not ever find god. But in its absence, I've found a lot of very meaningful and beautiful things in the real world instead.
PP, I appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable reservations about the existence of God. And I wish so much we could sit down over tea and discuss these ideas thoroughly...but I need to bring my kids to the dentist, and we are limited to this anonymous forum...
But quickly, your comment about the big guy in the sky shows that you are still somewhat influenced and perhaps limited by childish ideas of Who God is, what God is like. He's not a bearded old man. He's not like any myth or legend. God is our name for the Unmoved Mover. He is absolutely consistent with all our knowledge about physics and empirical thought and reason, because He created those things--He is the author of them. He is the reason for laws of physics, because He made them. His existence is reasonable and knowable, but also mysterious, because we are limited beings and He is unlimited; we exist in time and He is outside of time; we began and He has no beginning or end; we are finite and He is infinite.
He has revealed some things about Himself to us through our reason (such as Aquinas' five proofs for His existence), and He has also revealed some truths about Himself throughout history (the one most meaningful to me personally is that God is a communion of persons, a Trinity), and He has written His Word on our hearts, so He is always with us. So there is always hope for all of us, that we will get to know Him in this life.
What I hear in your words is a great deal of knowledge about Him already. You find things meaningful, ordered, and beautiful. Those are value judgments you have made. Those indicate you are able to make distinctions between order and disorder, beauty and ugliness, meaning and mere existence. The ability to make such choices is integral to our humanity. Therein lies our free will. And all of those aspects of your existence celebrate and reveal God to you.
The greatest scientists the world has ever known found their Creator through their work. God made you, so He knows how to find you--He already has, always has. Maybe someday, you'll find Him right back.
PP, I agree that you sound like a nice person who would be fun to sit down to tea with (a tea person! yay! I'm not a coffee drinker ).
I think it's admirable that you are very invested in your faith, and see it in everything you value in the world. I'm the same way in my non-belief, though -- when I think about the tiny, nearly infinitesimal amount of time people have, I also am deeply moved by goodness, order, and beauty. I just draw a different conclusion about where these values come from (to me, our morality is informed by what we are -- short-lived mortal beings whose time is finite -- if we were indestructible and immortal, for example, our morality and what we found beautiful or good would undoubtedly be very different) and what makes them meaningful. But I think we both agree that there is much to appreciate and love in the world.
The one thing I take issue with is your characterization of my ideas about God as being childish. I'll admit to throwing out a goofy line about god in my previous post, but I can assure you that I've studied the Bible in depth, and at the time I decided to become an atheist, I did not merely think "well, I don't think there's this dude with a beard in the sky, so that's that." I attended services for almost two decades, and when I decided, almost two decades ago, that I did not believe in any higher power, it was not without long, careful introspection and study. As I said, I'm a scientist and I have accepted my own ways of understanding the world (based mostly on Pragmatism and empiricism, with a splash of good old Occam's razor thrown in). I would never dream of telling you that you will become an atheist if you think about god enough, so I'm a little put off that you assume I've come to my (lack of) religious beliefs because I have not committed to thinking about the issue. That said, I do think you have a lot of integrity -- I just think sometimes that those who believe in god tend to assume that their truth is universal, whereas I admit freely that my truth is personal (but is 100% the best truth for me).
That said, I agree with PP who mentioned that the laws of physics are not "universal", but again, as a Pragmatist, I think we can only ever know -- closely enough -- the laws of physics of that part of the universe that's observable (i.e., our part), anyway.
My friend, first things first: so glad I stumbled across another tea drinker!
Second, I'm terrible at texting, and all I have right now is my phone, after a long day. So this is a conversation that must wait for another time--eternity, perhaps?
But I did not want to go to sleep without assuring you I meant no disrespect at all--I am sure you have thought deeply, and I took too much away from your casual comment. I am an adult revert, who came back to my faith after much drama, so I have nothing but respect for those who, like myself, search sincerely for truth.
Perhaps we can pick this up again...
Another time indeed! Just post and we'll grab a cuppa and type our hearts out.
Anonymous wrote:Yup, it's like a big game of "gotcha!" I'll insult you, then when you call me on my bad behavior, I'll say you have a persecution complex. Some atheists are really good at this.
Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.
That is completely ignorant and very misleading. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes (literal or otherwise). Why would you feel that in order for others to cope with difficult situations they have to agree with you first? Doesn't that seem a bit egocentric to you?
Do you even know who Ernie Pyle was? You sound very angry and bitter. You also have a problem with comprehension.
My friend, first things first: so glad I stumbled across another tea drinker!
Second, I'm terrible at texting, and all I have right now is my phone, after a long day. So this is a conversation that must wait for another time--eternity, perhaps?
But I did not want to go to sleep without assuring you I meant no disrespect at all--I am sure you have thought deeply, and I took too much away from your casual comment. I am an adult revert, who came back to my faith after much drama, so I have nothing but respect for those who, like myself, search sincerely for truth.
Perhaps we can pick this up again...
Another time indeed! Just post and we'll grab a cuppa and type our hearts out.
My scientist fellow tea-drinker, I have a lot of time in doctor's offices and on the sidelines of the kids' sports today, so on the off chance you are still around, a question for you:
I took note of your statement that a difference between us is that I believe my truth is universal, while you accept that your truth is personal. My question is this: do you think everyone's truth is personal? That there is no such thing as a universal truth?
I am as far from a scientist as they come, so I humbly confess that if you start talking quantum physics with me, I will quickly get lost. So let's put aside universal truths about the physical universe, such as the conservation of matter or other similar concepts I vaguely recall from high school. I'm just talking about universal truths of morality, right and wrong. Do you think everyone's "truth" about right and wrong is a personal choice, with no universal norms floating around "out there"? Morality is in the eye of the beholder, like beauty?
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