S/O: Illegal Aliens (For or Against)

[Anonymous]

Illegal presence, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

It is still a crime and the illegals are still criminals. The issue is the punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

They work seven days a week and send all their money home to families in their own countries.

This kills the argument that illegal aliens are good for our economy. They money they make is not stimulate our economy. It is being sent to other countries to stimulate theres. While the illegal aliens provide a drain on our services.

It's being sent home to keep their children alive. What is wrong with you?????

[Anonymous]

Nothing is wrong with me. I am simple refuting the erroneous statement that illegals are good for our economy. If we are to debate the issue we cannnot ignore fact or twist facts simply because they do not support our view. Intellectual honesty and all thatjazz.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Illegal presence, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

It is still a crime and the illegals are still criminals. The issue is the punishment.

If it is not a violation of the criminal code, how is it a crime? It would seem to me that violation of the criminal code is a sine qua non of a crime, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Think Germany, late 1930s. The rhetoric is distressingly similar.

No. It is not. Not everything can be equated to Nazi Germany any more than everything can be equated to racism. You do yourself and your position a disservice by trying to tie unrelated issues together to inflame and incite.

I know it's uncomfortable for you to think so, but take a step back and look at it dispassionately. There is a stark similarity in both the cirsumstances and the thetoric. An economy in distress, and a small subgroup being blamed for that distress. Read back just on this thread - illegals cause the healthcare crisis because they drain the system, they steal jobs from real Americans, etc. They're dragging this country down. They should all be put in jail.

It's obviously not an exact parallel - no one could argue that illegals control the global banking system, for example. For the sake of argument, I'll even accept that there's not a racial component to it (although there's a wealth of circumstantial evidence that strongly supports an ugly racial undertone to current immigration rhetoric). But the basic theory is the same - a small subgroup of people being blamed for all the ills in the economy and in society. If only they weren't here, everything would be all better.

Again, I realize it's an uncomfortable thought. But I don't believe that you can reread this thread (which is a fairly mild-mannered discussion of the topic) and honestly say that the similarities don't exist. They're pretty blatant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Illegal presence, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

It is still a crime and the illegals are still criminals. The issue is the punishment.

If it is not a violation of the criminal code, how is it a crime? It would seem to me that violation of the criminal code is a sine qua non of a crime, no?

I don't think PP is going to get it. She thinks anything that's against the law is "criminal." She probably doesn't know what sine qua non means either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Think Germany, late 1930s. The rhetoric is distressingly similar.

No. It is not. Not everything can be equated to Nazi Germany any more than everything can be equated to racism. You do yourself and your position a disservice by trying to tie unrelated issues together to inflame and incite.

I know it's uncomfortable for you to think so, but take a step back and look at it dispassionately. There is a stark similarity in both the cirsumstances and the thetoric. An economy in distress, and a small subgroup being blamed for that distress. Read back just on this thread - illegals cause the healthcare crisis because they drain the system, they steal jobs from real Americans, etc. They're dragging this country down. They should all be put in jail.

It's obviously not an exact parallel - no one could argue that illegals control the global banking system, for example. For the sake of argument, I'll even accept that there's not a racial component to it (although there's a wealth of circumstantial evidence that strongly supports an ugly racial undertone to current immigration rhetoric). But the basic theory is the same - a small subgroup of people being blamed for all the ills in the economy and in society. If only they weren't here, everything would be all better.

Again, I realize it's an uncomfortable thought. But I don't believe that you can reread this thread (which is a fairly mild-mannered discussion of the topic) and honestly say that the similarities don't exist. They're pretty blatant.

I'm against illegal aliens, but I don't want them jailed. However, we need to ramp up deportations and most of all, protect our borders better.

I'm all for law officials checking immigration status while in the progress of routine stops, etc. Parents of children being enrolled in school should have to produce identification that confirms their US status, adults seeking medical treatment should have to provide valid proof of citizenship, etc. When they fail these tests, hold them and have them deported. It's a slow system, but one thing I've learned is that when illegals see that there is a concentrated effort to crack down, they scurry away to more lenient states. If no states were lenient, where would they scurry? Hopefully home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Complaining that a significant group of people are leading to the demise of the economy and the country . . . let's see, where have we heard that before?

I hope you're not referencing black people, because if so, your premise is very faulty. We (I'm black) were brought here by force and enslaved for hundreds of years before we were emancipated. We were here *prior* to the writing of the Constitution and when the injustices were finally realized by society, amendments were made to grant us freedom and full liberty.

Illegals enter our borders *after* the writing of the Constitution, so at their very entry in the US, they are criminals and should be offered no protection under US law. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to benefit from many government services.

Either enter legally or don't enter. What's so hard (or wrong) about that? I wouldn't be so bold as to enter another country illegally and not expect to be told/asked to leave and I certainly wouldn't insist that it's my right to have access to welfare, free education, free healthcare, etc. It's really quite absurd.

Not the PP, but its obvious if you have an understanding of history.
"I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to the fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as sufferer but as fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before—the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago—a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people. "
"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions. "

Sorry, but your post is way too convoluted. Perhaps try again in English?

The quotes are from Hitler. Summarized, Jews are the cause of the economic ruin of Germany. Replace Jews with spics and replace Germany with America, and you get the today's argument.

I don't know Hitler rhetoric offhand to recognize his deranged musings. Might I suggest a "credit" after a quote, next time?

And I don't think the comparison to Jews in Germany are in any way comparable to the US' problem with illegal aliens. BTW, your use of the word "spic" is extremely insensitive. Yet you call yourself a "sympathizer"?

First, I never called myself a sympathizer. Second, the term "spic" is derogatory, just like the anti-immigration folks have been on this forum. So I am using language they understand. Scroll back in the post... lets see... illegals "sneak over and plop out babies to get free benifits "... really? plop out babies? That's disgusting.

Lastly, most people can recognize the musings of Hitler. Something called History class. Did you ever attend one?

Saying that illegals "plop out babies" (which some people say about anyone that has 3+ kid) is comparable to calling them "spics"? You are so off the mark, it's scary.

And no, I don't know Hitler rhetoric offhand. If you'd taken English in addition to history, you'd recognize the importance of citing your sources.

Are you the same poster who was chiding people to learn their history? Because you obviously failed it yourself. And you are deflecting wildly, which only draws more attention to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.

No, I'm not that same poster. And exactly where am I "deflecting"...not to mention doing so "wildly"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:By the way, it is not a crime to enter the U.S. illegally unless you were previously deported. So not all illegal aliens are "criminals." Now you can stop sounding ignorant.

It is illegal (against US law) to:

Enter without authorization or inspection
Staying beyond the authorized period after legal entry
Violate the terms of legal entry

So, while you may enter the US in a "legal" capacity, violating the terms of that entry is indeed illegal and against US law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Illegal presence, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

It is still a crime and the illegals are still criminals. The issue is the punishment.

If it is not a violation of the criminal code, how is it a crime? It would seem to me that violation of the criminal code is a sine qua non of a crime, no?

I don't think PP is going to get it. She thinks anything that's against the law is "criminal." She probably doesn't know what sine qua non means either.

It is understood that illegal aliens haven't committed a "crime" as it is defined by US law. Perhaps this is the very first, and important step, that needs to be made. Illegal illegal immigration should be considered a criminal offense. Since civil law can not be enforced by law enforcement, this essentially ties the hands of many who come into contact with illegal immigrants. Make it a criminal offense and perhaps this will have some effect on lessening the number of illegals who enter/stay in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach ESL to adults and most of my students are undocumented.I really think that if some of you who are so against illegal immigrants were to meet my students, you would change your minds. My students have really difficult lives. They work seven days a week and send all their money home to families in their own countries. Many of them have very young children back in their own country. I can't imagine making that sacrifice if I didn't feel I had to. I just wish people felt a little more empathy. If the only way I could support my family was to break a law, you can bet I would do that. I was incredibly lucky to be born in this country, so I wasn't forced to make the sacrifices that my students have made. But being born in this country was just a matter of luck for me.

Great to know that our tax dollar are being spent teaching illegals. Why HAVENT YOU TURNED THEM IN. They should make this aiding and abetting a crime. Just like in a bank robbery if someone dies the accomplice get charged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach ESL to adults and most of my students are undocumented.I really think that if some of you who are so against illegal immigrants were to meet my students, you would change your minds. My students have really difficult lives. They work seven days a week and send all their money home to families in their own countries. Many of them have very young children back in their own country. I can't imagine making that sacrifice if I didn't feel I had to. I just wish people felt a little more empathy. If the only way I could support my family was to break a law, you can bet I would do that. I was incredibly lucky to be born in this country, so I wasn't forced to make the sacrifices that my students have made. But being born in this country was just a matter of luck for me.

Great to know that our tax dollar are being spent teaching illegals. Why HAVENT YOU TURNED THEM IN. They should make this aiding and abetting a crime. Just like in a bank robbery if someone dies the accomplice get charged.

Agreed. Those who employ or assist illegals should be ashamed. If I had knowledge of illegal aliens, I would turn them in with *zero* hesitation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach ESL to adults and most of my students are undocumented.I really think that if some of you who are so against illegal immigrants were to meet my students, you would change your minds. My students have really difficult lives. They work seven days a week and send all their money home to families in their own countries. Many of them have very young children back in their own country. I can't imagine making that sacrifice if I didn't feel I had to. I just wish people felt a little more empathy. If the only way I could support my family was to break a law, you can bet I would do that. I was incredibly lucky to be born in this country, so I wasn't forced to make the sacrifices that my students have made. But being born in this country was just a matter of luck for me.

Great to know that our tax dollar are being spent teaching illegals. Why HAVENT YOU TURNED THEM IN. They should make this aiding and abetting a crime. Just like in a bank robbery if someone dies the accomplice get charged.

Agreed. Those who employ or assist illegals should be ashamed. If I had knowledge of illegal aliens, I would turn them in with *zero* hesitation.

It is precisely because you don't know any that you are able to display such a staggering lack of empathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach ESL to adults and most of my students are undocumented.I really think that if some of you who are so against illegal immigrants were to meet my students, you would change your minds. My students have really difficult lives. They work seven days a week and send all their money home to families in their own countries. Many of them have very young children back in their own country. I can't imagine making that sacrifice if I didn't feel I had to. I just wish people felt a little more empathy. If the only way I could support my family was to break a law, you can bet I would do that. I was incredibly lucky to be born in this country, so I wasn't forced to make the sacrifices that my students have made. But being born in this country was just a matter of luck for me.

Great to know that our tax dollar are being spent teaching illegals. Why HAVENT YOU TURNED THEM IN. They should make this aiding and abetting a crime. Just like in a bank robbery if someone dies the accomplice get charged.

Agreed. Those who employ or assist illegals should be ashamed. If I had knowledge of illegal aliens, I would turn them in with *zero* hesitation.

It is precisely because you don't know any that you are able to display such a staggering lack of empathy.

So, because I think they shouldn't enter the US illegally and abuse our governmental system, I'm not empathic? Not true. I feel for them, but hey "those are the breaks". Either enter legally or don't enter at all. Bottom line. I may have compassion for people who do a lot of wrong things. Doesn't mean I would condone or support their illegal acts.

[Anonymous]

The illegals violate civil law when they enter the US. Then, they violate criminal law when they obtain illegal documentation (forgery, identity left) and lie on their I-9 when they obtain employment. Illegals cannot live in the US without becoming criminals. They just start off civil law violators. So the use of "criminal" to describe illegal aliens is not inaccurate.