Concerns That New Department of Education Earnings Test Could Undermine Arts, Public Service Degree Programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, the people in this forum are AWFUL. Late stage capitalism in its ugliest incarnation. Some of the people posting here just have zero sense that art or education or ideas have any value to society because they don't make someone rich. These MAGA parents think their rape-y investment banker bro is contributing more to society through self-enrichment than an art teacher or public humanities professional ever could. This is why our country can't have nice things.

I have a rising senior and so have checked out this forum for tips. No more. So glad I never encounter these people in real life.

+1 And they don't even realize it. They are probably "educated" in that they have degrees, but they don't have a well-rounded education. It's really sad.

NP. I’m highly educated. I see the value of a well rounded education but I don’t think taxpayers should be paying for people to study things for pleasure that don’t have economic benefits, which is what happens these days with so many people defaulting on their loans.

You just proved to their point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. We had an awesome student loan program with almost zero defaults. We should not have changed a thing.

I am not sure if you are sarcastic or truly not aware. Here is a pretty good article from the Motley Fool (funny name, serious topics) - https://www.fool.com/research/student-loan-debt-statistics/?msockid=107a8323f45165f2061e9783f5f96456
Here is another one - https://thecollegeinvestor.com/39673/does-the-government-profit-off-of-student-loans/

Can you think of any business that can sustain up to 20% loss each time they sell something? I can agree with government breaking even on the loans, but losing money every year requires action. Best not to provide loans to customers who are at a high risk of not paying back in the first place.

The government isn't a business! It's a mechanism for society to maintain and advance itself. Education should be free, because why would we want to live in an uneducated society? Arts education should be free, because why would we want to live in a society where few people make art because most people can't afford to do it? What kind of life do we want for ourselves?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. We had an awesome student loan program with almost zero defaults. We should not have changed a thing.

I am not sure if you are sarcastic or truly not aware. Here is a pretty good article from the Motley Fool (funny name, serious topics) - https://www.fool.com/research/student-loan-debt-statistics/?msockid=107a8323f45165f2061e9783f5f96456
Here is another one - https://thecollegeinvestor.com/39673/does-the-government-profit-off-of-student-loans/

Can you think of any business that can sustain up to 20% loss each time they sell something? I can agree with government breaking even on the loans, but losing money every year requires action. Best not to provide loans to customers who are at a high risk of not paying back in the first place.

The government isn't a business! It's a mechanism for society to maintain and advance itself. Education should be free, because why would we want to live in an uneducated society? Arts education should be free, because why would we want to live in a society where few people make art because most people can't afford to do it? What kind of life do we want for ourselves?

+1. Looks like most people in this thread are happy watching AI slop all day everyday, so that's the future they want for themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, the people in this forum are AWFUL. Late stage capitalism in its ugliest incarnation. Some of the people posting here just have zero sense that art or education or ideas have any value to society because they don't make someone rich. These MAGA parents think their rape-y investment banker bro is contributing more to society through self-enrichment than an art teacher or public humanities professional ever could. This is why our country can't have nice things.

I have a rising senior and so have checked out this forum for tips. No more. So glad I never encounter these people in real life.

+1 And they don't even realize it. They are probably "educated" in that they have degrees, but they don't have a well-rounded education. It's really sad.

I actually think the most late-stage capitalism thing about all of this is colleges continually raising their tuition so that they’re so unbelievably unfordable for many people. I am a teacher, I do not think people should take out huge loans to become one (I made this mistake myself) fortunately there are now a lot of subsidized programs that allow people to get teaching certificates for low or no cost through school districts. I always recommend people who are interested look at these paths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Social workers should not be burdened with $200,000 in college loans.

Right. The programs should be capped in what they can charge for tuition. Instead of subsidizing loans, the government should subsidize the universities directly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would like to see the data. How many people are taking out loans for graduate level theater, art and dance classes and then defaulting on those loans? A loan repaid is not having a tax payer pay for it! Honestly, I wonder how many people are even taking loans that they can repay for those graduate programs as the interest rate on federal student loans isn’t that great.

What I hate about Republicans today is that they NEVER try to solve any problems. They look for esoteric edge situations and then present them as massive problems to foster culture rage in low information voters!

The issue with this predates Trump for a long time. And yes, masters programs in things like dance are notorious for loading people up with debt they can never repay and never pays off in terms of increased salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s just a myth that college major correlates exactly to career. English majors become lawyers, bankers as well as teachers and communications professionals. So now we’re turning college into trade school?

Good thing we have data on this! The data looks not only at the majors but at subsequent earnings and loan defaults. If all English majors at a college are becoming well paid professionals, then no worries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God, the people in this forum are AWFUL. Late stage capitalism in its ugliest incarnation. Some of the people posting here just have zero sense that art or education or ideas have any value to society because they don't make someone rich. These MAGA parents think their rape-y investment banker bro is contributing more to society through self-enrichment than an art teacher or public humanities professional ever could. This is why our country can't have nice things.

I have a rising senior and so have checked out this forum for tips. No more. So glad I never encounter these people in real life.

Ffs. *actual* “late stage capitalism” is schools like NYU putting kids $100ks into debt for theater degrees that will never lead to sustainable careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand concern about debt, but the rule proposed actually has nothing to do with debt. It focuses entirely on whether the program has an "earnings premium," meaning whether it enables students to make more money than if they'd never gone to college at all. Teaching is very relevant to this. It requires a college degree, it can pay well enough to pay off modest loans, but it might fail that test in some places. I


There was a previously existing rule (it didn't apply to most colleges) that DID focus on debt, looking at whether the average debt to earnings ratio for graduates was sufficient to pay back the debt. Applying that rule universally would actually address concerns about debt, but this doesn't do that.

Except that previous rule was a terribly drafted rule that did nothing to address student loan debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Public policy is not a Rorschach test ! ( For the maga people, a Rorschach test is a psychological test where the patient looks at an ink blot and tells the provider what they see. ) The only way out of this dystopian hell hole of idiocracy brought to us but angry losers and tech incels, is to look at data and facts and use logic.

Why has no one responded to how many 18 year olds are applying for student loans to enter expensive graduate programs in art, theater, and dance? How many 22+ year olds? How many people have taken federal loans for those programs and defaulted?

I wonder why there is no data. Why is there no budgetary impact data?

Could it be that the administration has zero capability or interest to solve real problems? Could it be that they just want to flare up culture wars while redirecting budgetary resources to grifters? Enquiring minds want to know!

There’s a ton of data dumbsh*t. I’m not even going to link it for you because you need to do your own work.

[Anonymous]

Over the last 30 years, college tuition has outpaced pretty much any price index by a very large degree. That’s the bigger problem and that’s because there is no limit on demand due to unlimited loans. It’s crazy how much tuition has increased for a state school in the last 30 years compared to any other metric including healthcare and housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Over the last 30 years, college tuition has outpaced pretty much any price index by a very large degree. That’s the bigger problem and that’s because there is no limit on demand due to unlimited loans. It’s crazy how much tuition has increased for a state school in the last 30 years compared to any other metric including healthcare and housing.

That's getting better though. Since 2010, the cost of college has barely grown faster than inflation and since 2020, it's actually down once you adjust for inflation.

[Anonymous]

Professors. administrators and other support staff are criminally underpaid at colleges like UVA, Va Tech, UConn, UMass, Delaware, etc. We need more tax-payer backed loans to flow through students to support our near-pauper professors, deans, provosts, etc.

[Anonymous]

I think people are hyper-focusing on the “economic value” of the degree to the individual graduate versus the economic value to society. For example, a degree in teaching doesn’t necessarily bring a large economic value to the teacher going into that field based on earnings alone, but it certainly brings tremendous value to society as a whole by educating future generations. We should either be forgiving student loans for those who go into public service, or finding ways to pay them a higher income.

[Anonymous]

And the value of a college isn’t just from the degrees conferred. Colleges themselves create jobs and in some rural areas bring substantial economic opportunity. Just like those areas are hard hit when we cut Medicaid and rural hospitals close, they will be hurt when we make it harder for students to enroll in those colleges to pursue higher education, forcing many to shutter.