Are we abandoning Israel?

[Anonymous]

It is due to this very complexity that the populations already present (Christians & Muslims, Druze and Arabic speaking Jews ) lobbied the UN to refrain from creating a religious ethnostate made up of refugees returning from Europe after 2 millennia and urged the creation of a modern, secular democracy where no religious or ethnic affiliation would have preference over another. Why is secularism and liberal western style democracy always anathema to the United States in former European colonies?? You realize that is the vision of Israel presented by the Arab states in 1948- not a Muslim or Christian state, a secular liberal democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is due to this very complexity that the populations already present (Christians & Muslims, Druze and Arabic speaking Jews ) lobbied the UN to refrain from creating a religious ethnostate made up of refugees returning from Europe after 2 millennia and urged the creation of a modern, secular democracy where no religious or ethnic affiliation would have preference over another. Why is secularism and liberal western style democracy always anathema to the United States in former European colonies?? You realize that is the vision of Israel presented by the Arab states in 1948- not a Muslim or Christian state, a secular liberal democracy.

I hope you realize the PA (not Gaza which is barely better) is literally the opposite of everything you stated.

-Practices Sunni Islam as a state religion
-Literally 0 Jewish population and if you sell property to one you literally get the death penalty. (Isn't this literally discriminatory to the highest degree)
-Not a democracy but a dictatorship in which elections haven't been held in 20+ years.

-Israel is ~75% one ethnicity but I don't see you complaining about Japan or China that even have higher percentages of a single ethnicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is due to this very complexity that the populations already present (Christians & Muslims, Druze and Arabic speaking Jews ) lobbied the UN to refrain from creating a religious ethnostate made up of refugees returning from Europe after 2 millennia and urged the creation of a modern, secular democracy where no religious or ethnic affiliation would have preference over another. Why is secularism and liberal western style democracy always anathema to the United States in former European colonies?? You realize that is the vision of Israel presented by the Arab states in 1948- not a Muslim or Christian state, a secular liberal democracy.

I hope you realize the PA (not Gaza which is barely better) is literally the opposite of everything you stated.

-Practices Sunni Islam as a state religion
-Literally 0 Jewish population and if you sell property to one you literally get the death penalty. (Isn't this literally discriminatory to the highest degree)
-Not a democracy but a dictatorship in which elections haven't been held in 20+ years.

-Israel is ~75% one ethnicity but I don't see you complaining about Japan or China that even have higher percentages of a single ethnicity[u].

I don’t think you know what that word means. DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is due to this very complexity that the populations already present (Christians & Muslims, Druze and Arabic speaking Jews ) lobbied the UN to refrain from creating a religious ethnostate made up of refugees returning from Europe after 2 millennia and urged the creation of a modern, secular democracy where no religious or ethnic affiliation would have preference over another. Why is secularism and liberal western style democracy always anathema to the United States in former European colonies?? You realize that is the vision of Israel presented by the Arab states in 1948- not a Muslim or Christian state, a secular liberal democracy.

I hope you realize the PA (not Gaza which is barely better) is literally the opposite of everything you stated.

-Practices Sunni Islam as a state religion
-Literally 0 Jewish population and if you sell property to one you literally get the death penalty. (Isn't this literally discriminatory to the highest degree)
-Not a democracy but a dictatorship in which elections haven't been held in 20+ years.

-Israel is ~75% one ethnicity but I don't see you complaining about Japan or China that even have higher percentages of a single ethnicity[u].

I don’t think you know what that word means. DP

Cope. Israel isn't an Ethnostate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is due to this very complexity that the populations already present (Christians & Muslims, Druze and Arabic speaking Jews ) lobbied the UN to refrain from creating a religious ethnostate made up of refugees returning from Europe after 2 millennia and urged the creation of a modern, secular democracy where no religious or ethnic affiliation would have preference over another. Why is secularism and liberal western style democracy always anathema to the United States in former European colonies?? You realize that is the vision of Israel presented by the Arab states in 1948- not a Muslim or Christian state, a secular liberal democracy.

I hope you realize the PA (not Gaza which is barely better) is literally the opposite of everything you stated.

-Practices Sunni Islam as a state religion
-Literally 0 Jewish population and if you sell property to one you literally get the death penalty. (Isn't this literally discriminatory to the highest degree)
-Not a democracy but a dictatorship in which elections haven't been held in 20+ years.

-Israel is ~75% one ethnicity but I don't see you complaining about Japan or China that even have higher percentages of a single ethnicity.

The Arab states were not proposing a secular democracy in 1948. You do realize it was legal for the state to kidnap/rape/convert Jewish children in several of these states? That professions were barred to Jews? That they could not own property? We’re conscripted into armies? That Jewish woman were kidnapped and sold into slavery and/or forced marriages? Payment of special taxes and ransoms? Part of the white supremacy underpinning your historical rewrite is a denial of the lived experiences of Jews in these Islamic non-secular, non-democracies which you admire so much. The Palestinian Authority does not have a “right of return” for any refugees - does not guarantee minority rights for anyone, does not have any sort of women’s rights, etc.

[Anonymous]

We and the rest of the world need to cut ties with Israel and give them the treatment they deserve no different than Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We and the rest of the world need to cut ties with Israel and give them the treatment they deserve no different than Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa.

Oh with the US leaving NATO it will happen pretty quickly. Europe was done with Israel years ago.

The US is the only country that supports Israel and we all know this will not last. 1.5 trillion in defense and cuts to every domestic program? lol good luck Israel you are going to need it.

[Anonymous]

For me, the bottom line is easy to see.

1. Israel and the corrupt POS losers in our government who most actively support Israel (along with the 35 - 40% of this country who support this insanity) are the primary drivers that have led our defense budget to this point, with an astounding $1.4 trillion … $1,4000,000,000,000.00 … notched in the latest proposal.

Nearly 6x the level spent by China, the next largest defense budget in the world.

That $1.4 trillion + is gravely problematic for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that it cannot be paid for without depriving us of essential services that impact our very quality of life here in America.

I consider that an existential threat. Americans have a right to defend themselves against existential threats, and to defend themselves against the groups and individuals creating the conditions that lead to that threat.

2. In addition to #1 above, Israel and that same group of POS losers in our government (along with their supporters) have dragged us into conflict after conflict after conflict. If any of these endless conflicts, all caused by Israel’s actions to anyone actually paying attention (the preemptive self-defense argument is rejected with prejudice), lead to even a whisper of the draft being reinstated in the U.S., I will consider that an existential threat requiring immediate action. And once again, I would expect that Americans will do what’s necessary to remove that threat and ensure that the threat never has an opportunity to arise again. Ever.

[Anonymous]

Why is this a question? We have abandoned our souls helping that country destoy everything around them, and soon us.
No money, no aid, no more wars.

[Anonymous]

I am an over 60 Jewish woman who is just appalled at my contemporaries who still continue to support Israel. They hate our current administration, they hate fascism, Christian nationalism, religion in public spaces, conservatives, everything, consider themselves liberal, but they have still lost their minds over Israel. Any comment to the contrary is met with accusations of anti semitism, or self hatred.

They seems like completely brainwashed MAGAs on this subject and I have had enough, frankly. To me their attitudes are undereducated and naive, but also cruel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an over 60 Jewish woman who is just appalled at my contemporaries who still continue to support Israel. They hate our current administration, they hate fascism, Christian nationalism, religion in public spaces, conservatives, everything, consider themselves liberal, but they have still lost their minds over Israel. Any comment to the contrary is met with accusations of anti semitism, or self hatred.

They seems like completely brainwashed MAGAs on this subject and I have had enough, frankly. To me their attitudes are undereducated and naive, but also cruel.

Da, da - Boris-bot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an over 60 Jewish woman who is just appalled at my contemporaries who still continue to support Israel. They hate our current administration, they hate fascism, Christian nationalism, religion in public spaces, conservatives, everything, consider themselves liberal, but they have still lost their minds over Israel. Any comment to the contrary is met with accusations of anti semitism, or self hatred.

They seems like completely brainwashed MAGAs on this subject and I have had enough, frankly. To me their attitudes are undereducated and naive, but also cruel.

Da, da - Boris-bot.

DP

What’s weirder? That you think everyone critical of Israel is either anti-semitic or a bot? Or that you don’t understand that literally 8.3 billion people on this planet of 8.5 billion people have developed THE EXACT SAME FEELINGS OF CONTEMPT TOWARD ISRAEL, and towards everyone who continues to sell the Zionism fraud?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The US and EU will not abandon Israel, OP.

Retreating from this war does not constitute and abandonment of Israel. They will still have weapons deals with the West, and they will still occupy Lebanon. Sadly.

However, the image of Israel as the victim in the Middle East is shattered for this generation.

lol the EU only goes along with the US on Israel. No NATO and 25% tariffs will allow the EU to go their own way. They will put sanctions on Israel.

PP you replied to. I don't think so. I am French, and we deal with the legacy of WWII and the Holocaust in a way Americans cannot understand. I don't think the EU will abandon Israel anytime soon.

How old are you? If you're over 30, you can tell yourself that. But younger people see Israel for the terrorist state it is.

DP. "Younger people" - presumably, like you - are just showing your profound ignorance. You really, really want to forget the Holocaust ever existed. I imagine you like to tell yourself it actually didn't happen, amirite?

No- you are wrong, younger people and history buffs realize that the scope of the holocaust is much larger than 6 million, it ws 12-14 million who died in the camps. the only people who want people to forget are the Israelis, they certainly dont want anyone to remember that there were other victims of teh Nazi brutality or that there were colored victims of teh allies who were just caught up in freedom fighting from brutal colonization and couldn't care less about any European power- they were ALL BAD. Its teh Isrealis who dont want anyone to learn anything from the war-- they want everyone to forget about the Geneva convention. to forget about the horror people faced upto and tried to prevent from happening again by their rejection of all the norms of warfare that were established as a reaction to the horrors of the world wars as well as the systematic undermining of institutions that were created to limit conflict like Nato and the UN b/c they constrain plans for Greater Isreal. so no, its the Isrealis who want people to forget the horrors or to accept that humanity is incapable of learning of learning from history. of the few survivors left- many are incredibly vocal against this current regime & speak out against what is happening, how many support it??? I can think of one in support and 5 against off the top of my head.

So in your racist worldview, Jews are centering themselves in the holocaust. You want Israel dismantled, you want Jordan dismantled, you want Lebanon dismantled, you want Syria dismantled, presumably you also want Egypt dismantled? India dismantled as they are all countries formed post-WWII with state religions. I am not sure what GenZ-oodles for brains thinks will fill the power vacuum or how installing American-style secular governments would work (that would seem to be colonialism itself- which I thought you were against?) - those older than you remember Yugoslavia (you don't read, otherwise we would tell you to look it up). There has always been racism against Jews on the far left and on the far right - what your generation is doing is not new. Much to criticize in Netayahu's government - but if he is a genocidal maniac - so is Obama. So is the MPD, for that matter. And so is every other European, Middle Eastern, or African leader from time immemorial. Even with highest estimates available, roughly 50,000 civilians were killed in Gaza. That is a much lower civilian casulaty rate of any 21th century war involving urban warfare. 70k protestors were murdered in Iran - and you and your friends held parties to celebrate. 2.5 Sudanese civilians were murdered - but you and your friends couldn't care less. Because that's the thorny truth of this all. If Palestinians are indigenous, so are Jews. If Jews are white settler-colonialists, so are Palestinians. And I say this to right-wing Israelis as well. Palestinians deserve self-determination. Jews deserve self-determination. Kurds deserve self-determination. Alwaites deserve self-determination. That is true "liberation" for everyone in the region. And the hyper-focus on Israel is because of racism against Jews, and colorism that favors white victims like Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter). So, abandon Israel - and embrace Iran. It's not going to help you get a job or afford housing or settle any of your copious domestic grievances. History tells us that when racism against Jews reaches a fever point - other bad things tend to happen. Ignore it at your peril - and your hate will just create more Zionists. Which seems to be the opposite of what you want.

India, Egypt, Iraq/Syria, Persia and China are the oldest civilizations on the planet. Pretending that some of those were created post WW2 is such utter bullcrap and blatant spin that it makes everything you say suspect.

Again, an old-school encyclopedia would be your friend, Z-bot. Judea is one of the oldest civilization. Iraq and Syria are not civilizations. Persia is indeed an old civilization - that was settler-colonialized by Islamicists. Ditto Kurdistan. Ditto Chaldeans. But as nation states, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, India are rougly the same age as Israel.

Iraq and Syria are not civilizations? lol. Did you even finish high school? Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq were way superior to Judea

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The US and EU will not abandon Israel, OP.

Retreating from this war does not constitute and abandonment of Israel. They will still have weapons deals with the West, and they will still occupy Lebanon. Sadly.

However, the image of Israel as the victim in the Middle East is shattered for this generation.

lol the EU only goes along with the US on Israel. No NATO and 25% tariffs will allow the EU to go their own way. They will put sanctions on Israel.

PP you replied to. I don't think so. I am French, and we deal with the legacy of WWII and the Holocaust in a way Americans cannot understand. I don't think the EU will abandon Israel anytime soon.

How old are you? If you're over 30, you can tell yourself that. But younger people see Israel for the terrorist state it is.

DP. "Younger people" - presumably, like you - are just showing your profound ignorance. You really, really want to forget the Holocaust ever existed. I imagine you like to tell yourself it actually didn't happen, amirite?

No- you are wrong, younger people and history buffs realize that the scope of the holocaust is much larger than 6 million, it ws 12-14 million who died in the camps. the only people who want people to forget are the Israelis, they certainly dont want anyone to remember that there were other victims of teh Nazi brutality or that there were colored victims of teh allies who were just caught up in freedom fighting from brutal colonization and couldn't care less about any European power- they were ALL BAD. Its teh Isrealis who dont want anyone to learn anything from the war-- they want everyone to forget about the Geneva convention. to forget about the horror people faced upto and tried to prevent from happening again by their rejection of all the norms of warfare that were established as a reaction to the horrors of the world wars as well as the systematic undermining of institutions that were created to limit conflict like Nato and the UN b/c they constrain plans for Greater Isreal. so no, its the Isrealis who want people to forget the horrors or to accept that humanity is incapable of learning of learning from history. of the few survivors left- many are incredibly vocal against this current regime & speak out against what is happening, how many support it??? I can think of one in support and 5 against off the top of my head.

So in your racist worldview, Jews are centering themselves in the holocaust. You want Israel dismantled, you want Jordan dismantled, you want Lebanon dismantled, you want Syria dismantled, presumably you also want Egypt dismantled? India dismantled as they are all countries formed post-WWII with state religions. I am not sure what GenZ-oodles for brains thinks will fill the power vacuum or how installing American-style secular governments would work (that would seem to be colonialism itself- which I thought you were against?) - those older than you remember Yugoslavia (you don't read, otherwise we would tell you to look it up). There has always been racism against Jews on the far left and on the far right - what your generation is doing is not new. Much to criticize in Netayahu's government - but if he is a genocidal maniac - so is Obama. So is the MPD, for that matter. And so is every other European, Middle Eastern, or African leader from time immemorial. Even with highest estimates available, roughly 50,000 civilians were killed in Gaza. That is a much lower civilian casulaty rate of any 21th century war involving urban warfare. 70k protestors were murdered in Iran - and you and your friends held parties to celebrate. 2.5 Sudanese civilians were murdered - but you and your friends couldn't care less. Because that's the thorny truth of this all. If Palestinians are indigenous, so are Jews. If Jews are white settler-colonialists, so are Palestinians. And I say this to right-wing Israelis as well. Palestinians deserve self-determination. Jews deserve self-determination. Kurds deserve self-determination. Alwaites deserve self-determination. That is true "liberation" for everyone in the region. And the hyper-focus on Israel is because of racism against Jews, and colorism that favors white victims like Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter). So, abandon Israel - and embrace Iran. It's not going to help you get a job or afford housing or settle any of your copious domestic grievances. History tells us that when racism against Jews reaches a fever point - other bad things tend to happen. Ignore it at your peril - and your hate will just create more Zionists. Which seems to be the opposite of what you want.

India, Egypt, Iraq/Syria, Persia and China are the oldest civilizations on the planet. Pretending that some of those were created post WW2 is such utter bullcrap and blatant spin that it makes everything you say suspect.

Again, an old-school encyclopedia would be your friend, Z-bot. Judea is one of the oldest civilization. Iraq and Syria are not civilizations. Persia is indeed an old civilization - that was settler-colonialized by Islamicists. Ditto Kurdistan. Ditto Chaldeans. But as nation states, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, India are rougly the same age as Israel.

Egypt is far older than Israel. Jacob’s sons all moved to Egypt when there was no country of Israel. They and their multiple generations of descendants were slaves in Egypt before Moses’ deliverance. And then Jews walked around in the desert for another forty years before finding a landing pad. Moses who predated the first king of Israel, Saul, lived approximately 1500BC. Whereas Saul was approximately 1050BC. So no, Egypt and Israel are not the same in age. Iraq is former Babylon.

Nope. Egypt as a country (and Iraq) are roughly the same age as the country of Israel. Judea, Babylon, Persia, are all ancient civilizations that pre-date Islamic colonization. There are many different indigenous groups that have existed in these modern-day countries over time.

Both Israel and Palestinians dont really have much in the record of history besides biblical references. The other countries in the area have far more documentation snd artifacfs

[Anonymous]

Tel Aviv has had large war protests, defying the order not to congregate. The Israeli people don’t want this war, either.