Richard Montgomery High School teacher complains about chronic absenteeism

[Anonymous]

I do home health work and work closely inside the houses of many students that would be considered high farms. I think culturally bed times are different. Many times when I am going to a home, families are just waking up at 11. I think parents are on different shifts at work and also it's not uncommon for the kids to just be up. I also think that being consistently at school is not as important and kids are kept home for a variety of things - one family told me that they wanted to all go together when the youngest child got their passport. The families do things as a unit more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And, the other advantage of early start is parents can drive the kids to school if they miss the bus or there is no bus. Many of us cannot do that with an 8:30 start and long commute.

Some people want to base the school bell times on what is most beneficial for the largest number of students, not what is convenient for parents.

Best for the kids is earlier start so they can fit in activities, sports, work, homework and other things and go to bed at a reasonable time.

Parents could lose their jobs if late. There is no morning care option in hs.

Why would you need morning care for high school age students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

As a HS teacher I can tell you that first period is my least favourite period. The kids end up learning a lot less than the other periods. Even kids who are in class are like zombies. They are not participating and most are barely listening. Many have their heads down. And then you have the kids who are not even present in class. It is too early in the day for teenagers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

As a HS teacher I can tell you that first period is my least favourite period. The kids end up learning a lot less than the other periods. Even kids who are in class are like zombies. They are not participating and most are barely listening. Many have their heads down. And then you have the kids who are not even present in class. It is too early in the day for teenagers

+1 my kid had math first period. They struggled. When they switched the math class next semester to a different period, they performed much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

Well if Fairfax county at one point had start times at 8:30 they changed it back. Similar to how Howard County tried it and found out it just doesn't seem to work.

And early start times is a separate issue from chronic absenteeism.

Where you can find instances of schools that start earlier and have better attendance rates than MCPS. (Frederick County) And if you want to say something like, we'll it's not as big as MCPS or different demographics. Then look at Fairfax County. Where I don't think the 25 minute difference would account for that big of a difference in the chronic absence rates.

The difference is how the school systems handle and enforce the issues and hold the students and families accountable.

If you want to push for later start times for the better well being of students, that's a different issue and thread.

But using it to address the chronic absenteeism is continuing to give excuses. "Oh it's the demographics" "The lower income families have to work all of the time" "We have larger school system" "Start times are too early"

And we can point to other local school systems who perform better than MCPS and it's just more excuses.

If you can point to specific examples where it's proven that later start times improved attendance and chronic absence rates, I'd be more onboard with it.

But like I said, just like with the declining proficiency rates at MCPS, I see the issues with chronic absences and attendance rates with issues in how MCPS does things and they're not doing anything to improve it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do home health work and work closely inside the houses of many students that would be considered high farms. I think culturally bed times are different. Many times when I am going to a home, families are just waking up at 11. I think parents are on different shifts at work and also it's not uncommon for the kids to just be up. I also think that being consistently at school is not as important and kids are kept home for a variety of things - one family told me that they wanted to all go together when the youngest child got their passport. The families do things as a unit more.

If you do home health work, that means a family member has some significant health issues.

They do tend to do more as a family. When we had parties when my kids were little, we invited siblings and the entire class, and the entire family would come. In contrast, those who had just invited the child wouldn't come. The bigger issue is that if parents are doing shift work and are exhausted, they cannot get up to take the kids to school on time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

Well if Fairfax county at one point had start times at 8:30 they changed it back. Similar to how Howard County tried it and found out it just doesn't seem to work.

And early start times is a separate issue from chronic absenteeism.

Where you can find instances of schools that start earlier and have better attendance rates than MCPS. (Frederick County) And if you want to say something like, we'll it's not as big as MCPS or different demographics. Then look at Fairfax County. Where I don't think the 25 minute difference would account for that big of a difference in the chronic absence rates.

The difference is how the school systems handle and enforce the issues and hold the students and families accountable.

If you want to push for later start times for the better well being of students, that's a different issue and thread.

But using it to address the chronic absenteeism is continuing to give excuses. "Oh it's the demographics" "The lower income families have to work all of the time" "We have larger school system" "Start times are too early"

And we can point to other local school systems who perform better than MCPS and it's just more excuses.

If you can point to specific examples where it's proven that later start times improved attendance and chronic absence rates, I'd be more onboard with it.

But like I said, just like with the declining proficiency rates at MCPS, I see the issues with chronic absences and attendance rates with issues in how MCPS does things and they're not doing anything to improve it.

Regardless of the start time, the students will still be absent. You need to address the reasons why, not assume its a start time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

As a HS teacher I can tell you that first period is my least favourite period. The kids end up learning a lot less than the other periods. Even kids who are in class are like zombies. They are not participating and most are barely listening. Many have their heads down. And then you have the kids who are not even present in class. It is too early in the day for teenagers

+1 my kid had math first period. They struggled. When they switched the math class next semester to a different period, they performed much better.

And, we see the opposite. Our kids do better with the morning classes as by the afternoon they are exhausted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

As a HS teacher I can tell you that first period is my least favourite period. The kids end up learning a lot less than the other periods. Even kids who are in class are like zombies. They are not participating and most are barely listening. Many have their heads down. And then you have the kids who are not even present in class. It is too early in the day for teenagers

Or, make the class more engaging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And, the other advantage of early start is parents can drive the kids to school if they miss the bus or there is no bus. Many of us cannot do that with an 8:30 start and long commute.

Some people want to base the school bell times on what is most beneficial for the largest number of students, not what is convenient for parents.

Best for the kids is earlier start so they can fit in activities, sports, work, homework and other things and go to bed at a reasonable time.

Parents could lose their jobs if late. There is no morning care option in hs.

Why would you need morning care for high school age students

Because not all kids are responsible to get themselves to school... hence why so many are late as it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

No, they wouldn't be sleeping in an hour later. They would be going to bed even later, therefore losing sleep as they'd stretch the day.

If its not best for them put them in private with a later start time. Problem solved. You want whats best for you and your family but it doesn't work for other families and the cost.