Richard Montgomery High School teacher complains about chronic absenteeism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

Well if Fairfax county at one point had start times at 8:30 they changed it back. Similar to how Howard County tried it and found out it just doesn't seem to work.

And early start times is a separate issue from chronic absenteeism.

Where you can find instances of schools that start earlier and have better attendance rates than MCPS. (Frederick County) And if you want to say something like, we'll it's not as big as MCPS or different demographics. Then look at Fairfax County. Where I don't think the 25 minute difference would account for that big of a difference in the chronic absence rates.

The difference is how the school systems handle and enforce the issues and hold the students and families accountable.

If you want to push for later start times for the better well being of students, that's a different issue and thread.

But using it to address the chronic absenteeism is continuing to give excuses. "Oh it's the demographics" "The lower income families have to work all of the time" "We have larger school system" "Start times are too early"

And we can point to other local school systems who perform better than MCPS and it's just more excuses.

If you can point to specific examples where it's proven that later start times improved attendance and chronic absence rates, I'd be more onboard with it.

But like I said, just like with the declining proficiency rates at MCPS, I see the issues with chronic absences and attendance rates with issues in how MCPS does things and they're not doing anything to improve it.

Don't forget when someone posted attendance rates, someone's excuse was "The school always incorrectly marks my kid absent and I don't bother having them fix it anymore..."

That's the type of mentality some of the people on here have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

Well if Fairfax county at one point had start times at 8:30 they changed it back. Similar to how Howard County tried it and found out it just doesn't seem to work.

And early start times is a separate issue from chronic absenteeism.

Where you can find instances of schools that start earlier and have better attendance rates than MCPS. (Frederick County) And if you want to say something like, we'll it's not as big as MCPS or different demographics. Then look at Fairfax County. Where I don't think the 25 minute difference would account for that big of a difference in the chronic absence rates.

The difference is how the school systems handle and enforce the issues and hold the students and families accountable.

If you want to push for later start times for the better well being of students, that's a different issue and thread.

But using it to address the chronic absenteeism is continuing to give excuses. "Oh it's the demographics" "The lower income families have to work all of the time" "We have larger school system" "Start times are too early"

And we can point to other local school systems who perform better than MCPS and it's just more excuses.

If you can point to specific examples where it's proven that later start times improved attendance and chronic absence rates, I'd be more onboard with it.

But like I said, just like with the declining proficiency rates at MCPS, I see the issues with chronic absences and attendance rates with issues in how MCPS does things and they're not doing anything to improve it.

Don't forget when someone posted attendance rates, someone's excuse was "The school always incorrectly marks my kid absent and I don't bother having them fix it anymore..."

That's the type of mentality some of the people on here have.

That explains what's going on w/ MCPS - school board is F-ed, school system is nothing but top-heavy bureaucrats, families don't care, and students certainly don't give F.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

No, they wouldn't be sleeping in an hour later. They would be going to bed even later, therefore losing sleep as they'd stretch the day.

If it’s not best for them put them in private with a later start time. Problem solved. You want whats best for you and your family but it doesn't work for other families and the cost.

Why not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was curious because when looking up the chronic absence rates for Fairfax County it said it went up to the high teens and maybe low 20s but the 2023-2024 number was 12.8 percent.

So found articles like this one in what Fairfax County is doing to address chronic absenteeism:

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

https://era.cehd.gmu.edu/resources/chronic-absenteeism

Note that neither of the links above mentioned pushing back bell times. And a lot of it is increasing family and student engagement.

Although Fairfax does have later start times than MCPS, so can't say that later bell times are not a factor.

I believe Fairfax used to have earlier HS start times and then switched over to an 8.30 am start time like many other states

Most of the high schools I looked up in Fairfax had a 8:10 bell time:

https://langleyhs.fcps.edu/about/bell-schedule

Their two alternative schools had a 8:00 bell time.

And I guess the question for me is if that additional 25 minutes that Fairfax has really makes a difference, where most of their chronic absence percentages are at most 22 percent. Whereas MCPS has many schools with chronic absence percentages in the 30 or 40 percent range.

It might be interesting if MCPS does a pilot program at some schools to see if it has any effect. Doing a pilot program might be problematic where the schools won't be synced with the times at other schools. So there might be some issues with school after school activity scheduling with multiple schools.

But I'd like to see it's actually worthwhile before than apply it to all schools affecting everyone's schedule.

I would guess it doesn't.

Again look at the kind of things Fairfax county was thinking of to improve their rates, which is mostly trying to get kids to school and increasing family and student engagement:
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/11/how-fairfax-co-is-responding-to-a-rise-in-student-absenteeism/

Compare this to the angle that MCPS is taking:
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/08/how-montgomery-co-public-schools-plans-to-reverse-a-trend-of-chronic-absenteeism/

Where they're focusing on inclusivity. ie kids feel like they don't fit in at the school and don't want to go.

I'm not saying that it's totally invalid. But there's more to a school system then ensuring DEI. (the I stands for inclusion)

I don’t think a pilot program is needed. Most states have switched over to later HS start times. Early HS start times are not considered best practice these days. There must be a ton of data out there. Are other states happy with the switch? I’m sure some educational researchers must have looked at it. MCPS can probably do some digging and find out how it’s going given that we are late to the party. There are other patterns besides truancy to look at. Mental health is a big one

Well if Fairfax county at one point had start times at 8:30 they changed it back. Similar to how Howard County tried it and found out it just doesn't seem to work.

And early start times is a separate issue from chronic absenteeism.

Where you can find instances of schools that start earlier and have better attendance rates than MCPS. (Frederick County) And if you want to say something like, we'll it's not as big as MCPS or different demographics. Then look at Fairfax County. Where I don't think the 25 minute difference would account for that big of a difference in the chronic absence rates.

The difference is how the school systems handle and enforce the issues and hold the students and families accountable.

If you want to push for later start times for the better well being of students, that's a different issue and thread.

But using it to address the chronic absenteeism is continuing to give excuses. "Oh it's the demographics" "The lower income families have to work all of the time" "We have larger school system" "Start times are too early"

And we can point to other local school systems who perform better than MCPS and it's just more excuses.

If you can point to specific examples where it's proven that later start times improved attendance and chronic absence rates, I'd be more onboard with it.

But like I said, just like with the declining proficiency rates at MCPS, I see the issues with chronic absences and attendance rates with issues in how MCPS does things and they're not doing anything to improve it.

Don't forget when someone posted attendance rates, someone's excuse was "The school always incorrectly marks my kid absent and I don't bother having them fix it anymore..."

That's the type of mentality some of the people on here have.

That explains what's going on w/ MCPS - school board is F-ed, school system is nothing but top-heavy bureaucrats, families don't care, and students certainly don't give F.

I care about my children’s education. I care about their attendance. I make sure they get to school on time. They rarely miss school. But like the pp, I’m not going to correct minor discrepancies in their attendance records. Not infrequently they are mistakenly marked absent for one random period out of a day where they were present every period. I actually did correct these mistakes at first, but at some point I got sick of it because it happened so often and I stopped. There were zero consequences. If my kids were actually present, and there are no consequences for them when a teacher or sub incorrectly marks them absent, why should I waste my time fixing minor mistakes in administrative records?

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

No, they wouldn't be sleeping in an hour later. They would be going to bed even later, therefore losing sleep as they'd stretch the day.

If it’s not best for them put them in private with a later start time. Problem solved. You want whats best for you and your family but it doesn't work for other families and the cost.

Why not?

Because everything is pushed back an hour or more…so they go to bed an hour later, get up an hour later which means the same sleep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

Okay, so you're saying that the attendance numbers for MCPS isn't as bad due to inaccurate attendance taking.

So that means maybe chronic absenteeism isn't as big of an issue at MCPS as people make it out to be?

Then what is the reason for MCPS's declining proficiency rates, where it trails other local school systems? Then what is the solution to help fix it?

[Anonymous]

Am I the only one that thinks too much attention is being paid to attendance? The things that I care about most are the curricula shortcomings, the locked bathrooms and kids doing drugs/fighting in them, issues with teachers being able to timely grade and give feedback on work. Attendance is way way down my list of things I care about.

Some kids will miss school because they are injured or sick—we don’t need constant texts telling us our kid was sick. We know! Some kids will ditch class when they know nothing is going on in class — teacher is shwong a movie they’ve already seen, post AP exams where teachers basically say we are done, half days where the teachers only have llle 15 minutes so it’s all pointless. Some kids will skip school because they don’t want it be there — but it’s almost impossible to force a kid that doesn’t want to do something to do it. Some of those kids are the ones smoking in the bathroom and fighting in the halls. Are they getting any benefit out of being there? Maybe if we could get them into a more intensive supportive environment that would be effective — but just telling those kids “go to school!” Does not make them learn.

I do wish they had more intensive support for kids who aren’t going to school because they are mired in family dysfunction, but would actually want to go. Or the kids with chronic medical problems who would love to go to school but can’t make it regularly — I know a teen with that situation and MCPS basically made their life hell threatening to fail them out of school when they were killing themselves trying to keep up. (There is a program for chronically medically ill but it’s really not good.). I feel like the McPS attendance efforts is all performative — they aren’t providing support for kids for whom it might make a difference and instead are just focusing on kids who either have a good reason to be absent, or who have zero interest in being in school. I wish they’d take all their effort focused on atttendance and instead figure out a way to have a decent English curriculum in which they actually read books or figure out an intensive support system for the kids who are spending their day vaping instead of in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

Okay, so you're saying that the attendance numbers for MCPS isn't as bad due to inaccurate attendance taking.

So that means maybe chronic absenteeism isn't as big of an issue at MCPS as people make it out to be?

Then what is the reason for MCPS's declining proficiency rates, where it trails other local school systems? Then what is the solution to help fix it?

I think its about 50-50. There are a lot of students skipping school and going in late, but I know I get about 6-10, maybe more, absent or late calls a year for each of my kids and I know they are at school (I track them and they text me for even things like fire drills). I used to correct it, but once I had to email the teacher, and a few others, and it was a drama, so after that I gave up. The teacher confirmed it but it wasn't good enough. We got a call on Friday and I know they were in testing, so no, I'm not going to fix it. It happens a lot with in-school activities outside of class when the teacher doesn't notify the other teacher and testing days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

Okay, so you're saying that the attendance numbers for MCPS isn't as bad due to inaccurate attendance taking.

So that means maybe chronic absenteeism isn't as big of an issue at MCPS as people make it out to be?

Then what is the reason for MCPS's declining proficiency rates, where it trails other local school systems? Then what is the solution to help fix it?

I agree it’s not as big an issue as the data makes it seem. They should also knock out all the half days when lookkkg at the data. I don’t think other local school systems use as many silly half days. At least some of the data also doesn’t account for sick days — I do think sick days are increased post covid for a variety of reasons (parents being more sensitive to keeping kids home when sick, kids immune systems being generally messed up after the pandemic, some increases in chronic autoimmune type conditions that maybe were covid triggered, etc.)

I think the declining proficiency rates are because the teachers are frustrated, exhausted and overwhelmed. My kids have been in the system for 15 years and I’ve seen so many of the best teachers just give up and leave. That combined with the fact that MoCo is increasingly a high needs county. Things like poverty and ESL status are highly correlated with performance on standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

I will bet everything I have that your kid is not a high performing kid. Am I right?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify with the issue of parents saying they don't correct their kids being mistakenly being marked absent, the issue isn't that parents aren't making an effort to correct the records.

The issue is when showing that their school's attendance rates might not be where they would like it, they come with the excuse, "oh well, they make mistakes in taking attendance"

Same thing when showing low proficiency rates, "oh my kid had a bad day and is why they got a low test score..."

I know my kid was at school yesterday taking a test all day. Got an email saying they were absent. Not fixing it.

Okay, so you're saying that the attendance numbers for MCPS isn't as bad due to inaccurate attendance taking.

So that means maybe chronic absenteeism isn't as big of an issue at MCPS as people make it out to be?

Then what is the reason for MCPS's declining proficiency rates, where it trails other local school systems? Then what is the solution to help fix it?

I agree it’s not as big an issue as the data makes it seem. They should also knock out all the half days when lookkkg at the data. I don’t think other local school systems use as many silly half days. At least some of the data also doesn’t account for sick days — I do think sick days are increased post covid for a variety of reasons (parents being more sensitive to keeping kids home when sick, kids immune systems being generally messed up after the pandemic, some increases in chronic autoimmune type conditions that maybe were covid triggered, etc.)

I think the declining proficiency rates are because the teachers are frustrated, exhausted and overwhelmed. My kids have been in the system for 15 years and I’ve seen so many of the best teachers just give up and leave. That combined with the fact that MoCo is increasingly a high needs county. Things like poverty and ESL status are highly correlated with performance on standardized tests.

Again, this is where I'm having issues with people finding excuses. People are blaming poverty and ESL.

I think we can all agree that Montgomery County and Fairfax County are similar right?

But compare their SAT scores for the class of 2023-2024:
https://www.fcps.edu/news/fairfax-county-class-2024-continues-surpass-state-and-global-sat-averages
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2025/250109_2024%20SAT_ACT_Part%20and%20Perf.pdf

Overall scores:
Fairfax: 1178
MCPS: 1063

Reading/Writing:
Fairfax: 594
MCPS: 541

Math:
Fairfax: 537
MCPS: 518

The Fairfax County link above doesn't break numbers out by ESL and low income. And I don't want to offend or make assumptions based on race. But even their numbers for Black and Hispanics are higher than MCPS's numbers.

Maybe Fairfax county doesn't have as much poverty as MCPS? It was pointed out here before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

Fairfax is the fifth richest county in the USA

Whereas Montgomery is 20th

As for size:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_school_districts_in_the_United_States_by_enrollment

Fairfax is the 11th largest school system.

Montgomery is 14

So it's as I've been trying to mention in my previous posts in multiple threads, there's something that Montgomery County (both the county and the school system) is not doing right.

People can say, well Montgomery County is a large school system with a diverse population that other school systems in the country doesn't have to deal with. Well Fairfax County Public Schools is larger.

Okay, maybe MCPS has to deal with more high risk populations than Fairfax. Then why is this and why did it happen? Fairfax and Montgomery Counties used to be equivalent. And I know there have been times I've been in Fairfax standing behind someone with a visible ankle monitor and there was a period where Fairfax had more visible gang activity than Montgomery.

I'm not here to continuously try to trash Montgomery County and point out how other local school systems are outperforming it. I live here and have a stake in Montgomery County too. But it's frustrating to watch MCPS going on a decline and people focusing on the wrong things.

Also our family has done activities in the east county and have lived in some of the more lower performing areas before. And can say for a fact that there are families that try their best and care very much about their kids performances. But they honestly lack the resources and are blocked from getting the same things as people from the west side of the county.

And I do think attendance rates/chronic absences do correlate to student performance. I mean it's kind of obvious to do well in school, you have to first show up. But again look at the root cause and try to fix the issue. It's not keep on trying to accommodate the students by pushing to have later start times when it wouldn't make a difference.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't think this problem is at all limited to first period, but I do think having such early start times might contribute to overall truancy because for parents who struggle to get their kids to school on time (or kids who struggle to get there on their own) it starts the day off on the wrong foot.

I've worked a lot with kids who have school avoidance issues. One thing you discover is that for a kid who is has a lot of reasons for not wanting to be at school (the most common are social issues or learning problems that make school a stressful and unwelcoming place for them), how the day starts matters. You can turn around a kid who is very school avoidant with a good homeroom teacher who starts the day off on a good note, for instance. It doesn't change the rest of the day at all but it will help that kid get through the door and in the seat, and once he's there, he is way less likely to leave.

If, on the other hand, there are major obstacles to the very first part of the day, the avoidance is triggered first thing in the morning, and it's hard to get that kid to go in even after that initial obstacle is over (i.e. to get the kid to go to 2nd period even if it's a class they like okay and it doesn't have the issues that homeroom does).

So having an early start time and a culture of absenteeism in homerooms, and then the school just tacitly overlooking that absenteeism, is going to impact the full day attendance because for any kid who has reasons for wanting to avoid school, you've just provided them with multiple reasons not to show up for the start of school, which is going to roll into the rest of the day for these kids. You need to find a way to get them sitting in that homeroom seat to start the day.

I think pushing start times back 30 minutes would help a lot. I know there are issues with buses and coordinating with elementary and middle school start times. But that doesn't change the fact that the early start is likely contributing to overall truancy.

I can buy the argument that early start times are negative in the ways you say, but I don't buy that pushing the start time back 30 minutes would help. Kids will inevitably just stay up later.

So then you get to the question what level of start time would help and align with adolescent development. My guess is 1-1.5 hours, but I can't how the system could function with a start time that is delayed for high schools.

Between activities, sports and homework, if schools started an hour later, they'd have to stay up an hour later to fit everything in or get up even earlier to do sports before school which defeats the purpose. On game nights, they may not get home till 10 and then still have homework, so that pushes games back to what 11?

Yes, that’s the whole point. For the majority of teenagers, both starting and ending their day later better aligns with their circadian rhythms. The idea is to fit their schedule to their optimal sleep patterns instead of fighting biology by trying to fit their sleep into a schedule that prioritizes the convenience of adults.

You know what helps more, being engaged in things they enjoy. My kids should not be going to bed at 12-1 pm because you refuse to enforce bedtime. Mine should not give up their activities and sports because you refuse to parent.

They don’t need to give up any activity or get less sleep. You just shift everything by a modest amount of time. There are still 24 hours in a day. They’ll get home one hour later, go to bed one hour later, get up in the morning one hour later. It’s no different that when our clocks change by an hour to switch from standard time to daylight savings time and back. If you enforce a bedtime, there should be zero issues.

So, if my kids have an activity from 7-9, that shifts one hour to 8-10 or it stays the same but then they have to come home and study so they go to bed an hour later so there is zero benefit except to you not having to enforce household rules. Some kids are out till 8-9-10 regularly even with school activities. They wouldn’t go to bed at the same time, they’d go to bed at least an hour later.

Why is it we can get our kids to school and you cannot?

It doesn’t matter that your kids would go to bed an hour later because they would get to sleep in an hour later. Same number of hours in the day, same activities, same amount of sleep.

The benefit to changing high school start time is that the majority of teens cannot fall asleep early even if they are tired. A later school start time and later bedtime better aligns with teens’ natural biological rhythms. We can maintain the status quo and teens can go through life feeling chronically tired, just like night shift workers do, but that’s not great for their health.

My kids are there when school starts at 7:45, but that’s not what’s best for them. However, it really doesn’t matter what’s best for my individual family or your individual family; what matters is what is most beneficial to either the majority of students or the students with the fewest resources. Maybe that’s a schedule that aligns to natural sleep patterns. Maybe that’s the status quo so they can provide childcare for younger siblings. Our demographics have changed since MCPS studied this more than a decade ago and there are lots of changes to school programs and boundaries coming in the near future. The last study will soon be totally obsolete.

No, they wouldn't be sleeping in an hour later. They would be going to bed even later, therefore losing sleep as they'd stretch the day.

If it’s not best for them put them in private with a later start time. Problem solved. You want whats best for you and your family but it doesn't work for other families and the cost.

Why not?

Because everything is pushed back an hour or more…so they go to bed an hour later, get up an hour later which means the same sleep.

So…you’re confirming that what I wrote is completely accurate? Thanks.

A modest change to school start time would have zero impact on your kids because every part of their day would be pushed back by the same amount of time, so they would spend the same number of hours in school, the same number of hours in extracurricular activities, the same number of hours doing homework, and the same number of hours sleeping. Their lives would be the same as they are now, everything would just happen slightly later. Since you’ve agreed that this is true, it makes even less sense that you oppose the change so vehemently. I’m beginning to think that despite the fact that it’s been explained to you, you don’t even understand what is being discussed.

I’ll try one last time. Most teenagers sleep better between 11:00 pm and 7:30 am than they do between 10:00 pm and 6:30 am because their bodies naturally crave sleep at different hours than adults’ or younger children’s bodies do. They have a natural circadian rhythm that makes both sleepiness and peak wakefulness kick in later in the day. Even if they start laying in bed in a quiet, dark room with no electronic devices, they will fall asleep later than an adult would.

Your kids are able to sleep on your command because they’ve spent all their energy at the end of the day being scholars and athletes and you’re an awesome parent who doesn’t tolerate any nonsense. A later start time isn’t important for your family — but it would improve the quality of sleep for most of their classmates, so other people want to make this change that would be beneficial for their kids and harmless for your kids.

[Anonymous]

I am a teacher. The issue is that you can be absent for 25 days out of a month and there are no consequences. For example, you can be absent for 25 days out of the month and then at the end of the marking period, the school wants to have you give out work to bring up their grade. They can turn everything in within the last 5 days and they pass the class even if they did not go to class. It is impossible to retain a child at this point. They all pass. There are threats but there are no follow through.