Why is Math the Super Accelerated Subject?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AP Calc BC in 10th grade. If there was an accelerated pathway for writing, she'd take it. But she can't, because the electives aren't any better than AP Lang and AP Lit (taken respectively in 11th and 12th), so there's no point. The English curriculum in MCPS is really bad. Thank goodness she reads and writes for pleasure, at home. She's in all AP classes for other things like APUSH and AP Physics C. All of it is easy for her.

Math is the one discipline where logical and critical thinking skills are all you need. Maturity and social skills are not needed. If you think about it for half a second, you'll recognize that all other disciplines need some basic level of understanding of human relationships. Very young, immature people can do very well in math. It's truly for anyone with the patience to cogitate.

This is why math, above any other subject, has been prized by scholars over the centuries of human civilization.

This is a very weird take. Math has definitely not been prized over other disciplines. It is currently the only discipline kids are allowed to accelerate in public schools because we have dumbed down the rest of the subjects, but the dumber-downers are not actually smart enough to dumb down math. they try by blocking advanced course work but that is all they can do.

Unfortunately, they are.

For instance, some schools no longer offer a direct path to Calc BC, forcing students to take a (yearlong) Calc AB first instead. They've also watered down Precalculus (can you say "AP Precalculus" - a reduced curriculum, with 25% optional and thus not taught.) The teaching methods are short on practice, devoid of anything remotely challenging that requires students to think, and full of crap like "talk to your partner about this function." It doesn't help when talented students (who say take Precalc in 9th grade) are put in the same class with math delayers who take Precalc in 12th. Traditionally homework intensive courses like Algebra I/H and Geometry H are now such that students work on a much reduced workload and are allowed to finish their work in class. Calculators are encouraged as early as the 4th week of Algebra I. Participation in any kind of math contests (AMC8/10/12, MK, Mathcounts) is pretty much infinitesimal in terms of student population.

I've seen this all first hand, and it requires a constant fight with teachers and administration as well as substantial work at home (AoPS) to ensure that our child has a chance to get the education I did where I grew up.

Spare me. Your average college class has an age range 18- 80. Private schools redshirt summer borns by default. A 14 year old and a 17 year old taking a pre calc class together isn’t going to hurt either of them. The real world is multi generational and insisting that you kid only interact with others within a strict 12 month range age is ridiculous when you think about it.

[Anonymous]

Your mom is super accelerated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Math and Humanities are both accelerated now a days but the Humanities requires more to get meaningfully further ahead.

Math is linear, rules based and the concepts build upon one another to be easily explainable and understood. If I teach you 2+2, once you grasp the concept, understanding 3+3 is easy. Similarly, I can breakdown 2x2 back to its addition. This continues all through math. Meaning once you grasp the concept you can solve the problems teachers place in front of you. The challenge comes into applying the math in unsolved problems or using it in other fields to explain the info in a universal way(ie Science).

Humanities on the other hand(say English or History) requires a greater body of knowledge. It requires understanding of diverse languages, cultures, history, nuance. The mechanics of certain writing styles can be taught but the understanding comes from consuming more information including experiences in life. It’s the same reason you can read Animal Farm or Lord of the Flies in 8th grade but if you read it again or thought about it at 30 it takes on different meaning (or at least you understand it with greater depth).

I disagree that this is limited to humanities. I'm starting to help my kids with Geometry and Calculus and I "see" so many more things and different ways to approach things now that I have a greater depth of knowledge after being exposed to Physics and Economics and higher-level math courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Race to nowhere.

The path for extreme acceleration (>2 years) should have a very high bar.

What do you consider greater than 2 years acceleration to be? And what should the bar look like?

My son ended up on a path that had him taking engineering statistics, differential equations and Linear algebra his senior year and could've gone further if it it had been left up to the school. But I pulled him from math and some science in middle school (with the school's support) to take him through several AOPS courses, because I *wanted* him not to accelerate for the sake of acceleration. When he went back in 9th grade, it was mainly box checking that year.

This acceleration was precipitated by a visit to the school's counselor expressing suicide ideation. There was a large mismatch between his math knowledge and his first grade teacher's expectations, but it should not take situations like that to get kids what they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AP Calc BC in 10th grade. If there was an accelerated pathway for writing, she'd take it. But she can't, because the electives aren't any better than AP Lang and AP Lit (taken respectively in 11th and 12th), so there's no point. The English curriculum in MCPS is really bad. Thank goodness she reads and writes for pleasure, at home. She's in all AP classes for other things like APUSH and AP Physics C. All of it is easy for her.

Math is the one discipline where logical and critical thinking skills are all you need. Maturity and social skills are not needed. If you think about it for half a second, you'll recognize that all other disciplines need some basic level of understanding of human relationships. Very young, immature people can do very well in math. It's truly for anyone with the patience to cogitate.

This is why math, above any other subject, has been prized by scholars over the centuries of human civilization.

This is a very weird take. Math has definitely not been prized over other disciplines. It is currently the only discipline kids are allowed to accelerate in public schools because we have dumbed down the rest of the subjects, but the dumber-downers are not actually smart enough to dumb down math. they try by blocking advanced course work but that is all they can do.

Unfortunately, they are.

For instance, some schools no longer offer a direct path to Calc BC, forcing students to take a (yearlong) Calc AB first instead. They've also watered down Precalculus (can you say "AP Precalculus" - a reduced curriculum, with 25% optional and thus not taught.) The teaching methods are short on practice, devoid of anything remotely challenging that requires students to think, and full of crap like "talk to your partner about this function." It doesn't help when talented students (who say take Precalc in 9th grade) are put in the same class with math delayers who take Precalc in 12th. Traditionally homework intensive courses like Algebra I/H and Geometry H are now such that students work on a much reduced workload and are allowed to finish their work in class. Calculators are encouraged as early as the 4th week of Algebra I. Participation in any kind of math contests (AMC8/10/12, MK, Mathcounts) is pretty much infinitesimal in terms of student population.

I've seen this all first hand, and it requires a constant fight with teachers and administration as well as substantial work at home (AoPS) to ensure that our child has a chance to get the education I did where I grew up.

Spare me. Your average college class has an age range 18- 80. Private schools redshirt summer borns by default. A 14 year old and a 17 year old taking a pre calc class together isn’t going to hurt either of them. The real world is multi generational and insisting that you kid only interact with others within a strict 12 month range age is ridiculous when you think about it.

The issue isn't age range. It's mixing students who have high aptitude/affinity for math with those who struggle with it. I've had kids on both sides of this spectrum and classes like this didn't work well for either of them, even when the teacher was excellent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Math teachers are asking this too. Anyone who tried to take an AP English class as a freshman would be laughed at, but we are pushing AP math to that level. No one would try to skip Spanish 2 and go from 1 to 3, but everyone tries to skip prealgebra and jump to algebra 1 earlier.

I don’t know why we are only accelerating one subject.

False. In our district, freshman can take AP eng language- if they took the (ultra) accelerated English course in middle school. My 10th grader is in AP English lang. These programs exist all over the country, usually tied to state universities under “pre-college programs”: they teach essentially math and English at very accelerated rates to middle schoolers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

Wrong.
As long as you have Calc AB by 12th, you are strong candidate at any top school for STEM. They care about interst and aptitude, not how fast you rushed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

Wrong.
As long as you have Calc AB by 12th, you are strong candidate at any top school for STEM. They care about interst and aptitude, not how fast you rushed.

If you are taking Calc AB in 12th grade you are not going to get into a top engineering school.
Fact

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

Wrong.
As long as you have Calc AB by 12th, you are strong candidate at any top school for STEM. They care about interst and aptitude, not how fast you rushed.

If you are taking Calc AB in 12th grade you are not going to get into a top engineering school.
Fact

Mine got into Cornell for engineering. Fact.

[Anonymous]

Super accelerated? Our math education is significantly behind and our students are struggling to catch up when it comes time for their stem degrees- note I’m not talking about Stanford grads but average students at average schools. There’s nothing advanced about calculus, if anything it’s foundational for anyone who’s interested in STEM who isn’t a pure math major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

Wrong.
As long as you have Calc AB by 12th, you are strong candidate at any top school for STEM. They care about interst and aptitude, not how fast you rushed.

If you are taking Calc AB in 12th grade you are not going to get into a top engineering school.
Fact

Mine got into Cornell for engineering. Fact.

OP here. May I offer a middle ground? I think the key is what is offered. If your school doesn't even offer BC, then you aren't going to penalized for not taking it.

One of the things that was rumbling around in my brain, as I have an 11th grader, is that "most rigorous" course designation that seems to be so key for top college admission. If your school has BC, that is most rigorous and only kids with a real apptitude for math should get there. I know its about the top 25% of kids in her school.

But 100% of the kids in her school get both English AP's. There is only one AP offered in each language, so that's not too hard to reach. The bar for science is only a single AP in each main topic....basically a bright humanities kid, like my daughter, can hit "most rigorous" in eveyrthing but math without missing a beat. But math is the one subject you need to be "extra" accelerated for to reach the top levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Super accelerated? Our math education is significantly behind and our students are struggling to catch up when it comes time for their stem degrees- note I’m not talking about Stanford grads but average students at average schools. There’s nothing advanced about calculus, if anything it’s foundational for anyone who’s interested in STEM who isn’t a pure math major.

OP here. I can only compare my education, in the late 80's/90's to the current day. The top bar for every subject outside of math has stayed the same. I was an extremely good math student, skipped algebra I, and hit AB in 11th grade. That's where math stopped for me, because there was nowhere else to go.

Nowadays, I could have hit BC in 10th or 11th and had several years for post calc math (which I eventually got to in college).

I took every AP offered in my school, and the core ones are no different today. (There are just a lot more "fluffy" ones, like CS, psych, seminar, etc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Super accelerated? Our math education is significantly behind and our students are struggling to catch up when it comes time for their stem degrees- note I’m not talking about Stanford grads but average students at average schools. There’s nothing advanced about calculus, if anything it’s foundational for anyone who’s interested in STEM who isn’t a pure math major.

OP here. I can only compare my education, in the late 80's/90's to the current day. The top bar for every subject outside of math has stayed the same. I was an extremely good math student, skipped algebra I, and hit AB in 11th grade. That's where math stopped for me, because there was nowhere else to go.

Nowadays, I could have hit BC in 10th or 11th and had several years for post calc math (which I eventually got to in college).

I took every AP offered in my school, and the core ones are no different today. (There are just a lot more "fluffy" ones, like CS, psych, seminar, etc)

A lot of content has changed since the 90s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Not entirely true. Many schools make kids take AB before BC. I think if you are in precal in 9th, calc AB in 10th then BC in 11th, that is equally strong as if you did precal in 9th than BC in 10th. Colleges know not all students are allowed to go straight to BC. As long as you’ve had at least one year of calc III/multivariable calc by 12th you strong candidate at any top school for stem.

Wrong.
As long as you have Calc AB by 12th, you are strong candidate at any top school for STEM. They care about interst and aptitude, not how fast you rushed.

If you are taking Calc AB in 12th grade you are not going to get into a top engineering school.
Fact

Mine got into Cornell for engineering. Fact.

OP here. May I offer a middle ground? I think the key is what is offered. If your school doesn't even offer BC, then you aren't going to penalized for not taking it.

One of the things that was rumbling around in my brain, as I have an 11th grader, is that "most rigorous" course designation that seems to be so key for top college admission. If your school has BC, that is most rigorous and only kids with a real apptitude for math should get there. I know its about the top 25% of kids in her school.

But 100% of the kids in her school get both English AP's. There is only one AP offered in each language, so that's not too hard to reach. The bar for science is only a single AP in each main topic....basically a bright humanities kid, like my daughter, can hit "most rigorous" in eveyrthing but math without missing a beat. But math is the one subject you need to be "extra" accelerated for to reach the top levels.

His school offered BC. He’s still a Cornell student. These “rules” don’t actually exist.