Why is Math the Super Accelerated Subject?

[Anonymous]

Math is the one subject for which teachers struggle to provide differentiation in the classroom without it coming across as punishing the smart kids with extra work. In English or History classes, brighter kids can engage with the materials on a deeper level and have more mature analysis without it turning into more work.

In math, the teachers have to move at the pace of the weakest student, and the only way I've seen teacher provide a challenge is giving extra problems to the top kids in addition to the regular homework that everyone has to do.

Schools haven't come up with a good way to go deeper or provide a higher level class than the standard "honors" level, so they instead accelerate the top kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading and writing at a sophisticated level requires life experience that children haven't lived long enough to attain.

Wrong. Many children are exceptionally bright and sophisticated in their reading comprehension and are absolutely ready to engage with more sophisticated material. Some kids excel early in math... others excel early in language arts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some kids have an innate ability with math. And obviously they should be encouraged to challenge themselves. And math is a subject you can’t dumb down. The school districts that are trying to kill math bc “equity” haven’t really succeeded.

But there are also kids that have an innate ability with English and writing. And those kids are getting crushed by the “equity” people.

So math remains a place where talent can shine. And the stellar humanities kids are told to whither and be bored bc the equity administrators can definitely dumb that down to hit their numbers.

I can’t see any differences between the teaching of English and writing in high schools currently and the teaching 30 years ago. There has always been some basic classes, middle level classes and AP classes.

Can you give some samples of how students who are more interested in the humanities are told to whither and be bored?

Uh FCPS’ adaptation of Benchmark. It’s all short reading passages with mostly multiple choice questions (some essay writing) k-6. Used both for AAP (advanced) and gen Ed. I think it gets better in high school and maybe middle school but that’s a long time tobe doing short passage reading.

I was thinking high schools. Our district still uses full books. I can not imagine not having them read books in the early years.

[Anonymous]

I was in a top high school similar to TJ. We did accelerate everything. I had 4 years of AP history and also took AP art history over the summer. I had AP Spanish and AP Spanish literature (it seemed there was a 3rd option too for bilingual Spanish speakers), AP anthropology and psychology. 2 different AP English courses. You could take all 3 sciences together if you liked, but most kids did physics and chemistry.

Just thinking about my awesome high school makes me a bit sad for my own kids. We had some of the best classroom debates with the kids interested and engaged, and that seems to be completely missing from classes now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

That is ridiculous. Many HS don’t even offer Calculus. I took AB calculus as a HS senior which was the earliest I could possibly take it, and the only calculus offered. And not AP, because my school had no AP classes. I went to an Ivy and majored in a science. The colleges are aware of what limits exist for advanced coursework in most high schools.

Is this true?? I have never heard of calculus not being offered in high school. I know my dad even took it in the 70s in his small town, so did dh in his very small town too. It’s AP Calc and AP calc BC that’s not always offered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

That is ridiculous. Many HS don’t even offer Calculus. I took AB calculus as a HS senior which was the earliest I could possibly take it, and the only calculus offered. And not AP, because my school had no AP classes. I went to an Ivy and majored in a science. The colleges are aware of what limits exist for advanced coursework in most high schools.

Is this true?? I have never heard of calculus not being offered in high school. I know my dad even took it in the 70s in his small town, so did dh in his very small town too. It’s AP Calc and AP calc BC that’s not always offered.

About 20% of seniors take calculus. Some kids don't have access at all:

"An estimated 17 percent of U.S. high school students have no access to calculus at all, even online or through a community college."

https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-high-school-calculus-college-admissions-survey/#:~:text=Calculus%20can%20be%20a%20miserable,generally%20when%20they%20are%20seniors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AP Calc BC in 10th grade. If there was an accelerated pathway for writing, she'd take it. But she can't, because the electives aren't any better than AP Lang and AP Lit (taken respectively in 11th and 12th), so there's no point. The English curriculum in MCPS is really bad. Thank goodness she reads and writes for pleasure, at home. She's in all AP classes for other things like APUSH and AP Physics C. All of it is easy for her.

Math is the one discipline where logical and critical thinking skills are all you need. Maturity and social skills are not needed. If you think about it for half a second, you'll recognize that all other disciplines need some basic level of understanding of human relationships. Very young, immature people can do very well in math. It's truly for anyone with the patience to cogitate.

This is why math, above any other subject, has been prized by scholars over the centuries of human civilization.

NP. This is true of pure math, but for the vast majority of disciplines where you actually have to apply math..it no longer holds true. Calculus, for example, is useful in subjects like physics and economics. To really understand how to use it, you need to understand the context and applications. When I was in college, a physics professor of mine who was German told me that in Germany Calculus is actually taught in physics or EE departments, not math, to ensure it's taught in a way to be useful.

I have a PhD in physics, but I don't work with college students much in my current job. I do wonder whether a lot of college professors find themselves reteaching basic concepts because their supposedly accelerated students never learned how to apply them properly.

Agree with this. And higher level math actually becomes quite abstract

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Math is the one subject for which teachers struggle to provide differentiation in the classroom without it coming across as punishing the smart kids with extra work. In English or History classes, brighter kids can engage with the materials on a deeper level and have more mature analysis without it turning into more work.

In math, the teachers have to move at the pace of the weakest student, and the only way I've seen teacher provide a challenge is giving extra problems to the top kids in addition to the regular homework that everyone has to do.

Schools haven't come up with a good way to go deeper or provide a higher level class than the standard "honors" level, so they instead accelerate the top kids.

First of all, differentiation (of any subject) is a terrible approach that ends up doing a disservice to all students. Any time, however small focused on at-level and advanced students, is time that is taken away from the struggling students. Moreover, students who struggle may be intimidated or overshadowed by more advanced kids. Meanwhile, too often a teacher’s idea of differentiation for advanced students is to assign them more work at the same level or to turn them into a classroom aid to tutor struggling students (something they are not only ill-equipped to do, but it does nothing to help them learn for themselves). In the rare cases where advanced students’ needs are taken into account, they may be offered acceleration which, while appreciated, will widen the ability gap with their peers, exacerbating the problem.

Instead of trying to provide differentiated instruction in a mixed-level group, it is better to offer flexible ability grouping (not tracking), where students are taught at whatever their current level may be, with the goal to help them progress to a more challenging level.

While math instruction tends to be linear, math itself is not. There are many math related topics that could be introduced for enrichment that might never be covered in a standard math curriculum (programming, secret codes, mental math, different numbering systems that aren’t base 10, modular arithmetic, fractals, etc.). Logic problems, math puzzles, and mentally challenging Problems of the Week offer another way to supplement. While I don’t have direct experience, I’ve also heard excellent things about programs like Beast Academy/AOPS.

My point is that, ideally, students should be grouped and instructed according to their ability level and that just as there are curricula options for on-level and struggling students, a curriculum offering enrichment options should be provided for advanced students as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was in a top high school similar to TJ. We did accelerate everything. I had 4 years of AP history and also took AP art history over the summer. I had AP Spanish and AP Spanish literature (it seemed there was a 3rd option too for bilingual Spanish speakers), AP anthropology and psychology. 2 different AP English courses. You could take all 3 sciences together if you liked, but most kids did physics and chemistry.

Just thinking about my awesome high school makes me a bit sad for my own kids. We had some of the best classroom debates with the kids interested and engaged, and that seems to be completely missing from classes now.

That's because many kids are afraid of speaking up about their own opinions because they are likely to get shouted down and/or cancelled by the usual suspects. It is indeed sad what classrooms have become.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was in a top high school similar to TJ. We did accelerate everything. I had 4 years of AP history and also took AP art history over the summer. I had AP Spanish and AP Spanish literature (it seemed there was a 3rd option too for bilingual Spanish speakers), AP anthropology and psychology. 2 different AP English courses. You could take all 3 sciences together if you liked, but most kids did physics and chemistry.

Just thinking about my awesome high school makes me a bit sad for my own kids. We had some of the best classroom debates with the kids interested and engaged, and that seems to be completely missing from classes now.

A bunch of bs- there’s no such thing as AP anthropology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was in a top high school similar to TJ. We did accelerate everything. I had 4 years of AP history and also took AP art history over the summer. I had AP Spanish and AP Spanish literature (it seemed there was a 3rd option too for bilingual Spanish speakers), AP anthropology and psychology. 2 different AP English courses. You could take all 3 sciences together if you liked, but most kids did physics and chemistry.

Just thinking about my awesome high school makes me a bit sad for my own kids. We had some of the best classroom debates with the kids interested and engaged, and that seems to be completely missing from classes now.

That's because many kids are afraid of speaking up about their own opinions because they are likely to get shouted down and/or cancelled by the usual suspects. It is indeed sad what classrooms have become.

The assumption that the best students are conservative isn’t born into reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know of any podcasts or opinion pieces on this topic? I find it both fascinating, and, as the parent of a bright kid who loves science but is much more talented in other subjects, frustrating.

I have this in the college section, as we hear again and again kids need to "max rigor" to be competitive for top colleges.

But max rigor in your humanities are freshmen level courses (AP English, APUSH) that any reasonably hard working stem kid could do if they were so motivated. Back in my day, hitting AP Calc AB was the top possible path for 99% of kids in math. But now, AP Calc BC is the new AB and, there are a ton of kids hitting that level in 11th or even 10th grade.

What's unique about math that makes this possible? And, how does it make sense that to max rigor in math and math alone, you need to be on an accelerated pathway from middle school.

I'm totally a STEM person who graduated high school in the early 90's, so I find this change both fascinating and baffling and wonder what people more plugged in than me have to say about it.

(My kid, on the other hand, is only now coming into her own in math and science. After a rough start, she is loving honors pre calc and AP Bio as a junior. But she will realistically "only" get into AB next year even though she will graduate with a dozen AP's and is planning to apply as a humanities major so she is a competitive candidate)

12 years of compounding gains. Math is an objective subject, so a kid who is gifted in math sticks out in a way that makes it easier to advocate for advanced placement in an evidence based manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math is the one subject for which teachers struggle to provide differentiation in the classroom without it coming across as punishing the smart kids with extra work. In English or History classes, brighter kids can engage with the materials on a deeper level and have more mature analysis without it turning into more work.

In math, the teachers have to move at the pace of the weakest student, and the only way I've seen teacher provide a challenge is giving extra problems to the top kids in addition to the regular homework that everyone has to do.

Schools haven't come up with a good way to go deeper or provide a higher level class than the standard "honors" level, so they instead accelerate the top kids.

First of all, differentiation (of any subject) is a terrible approach that ends up doing a disservice to all students. Any time, however small focused on at-level and advanced students, is time that is taken away from the struggling students. Moreover, students who struggle may be intimidated or overshadowed by more advanced kids. Meanwhile, too often a teacher’s idea of differentiation for advanced students is to assign them more work at the same level or to turn them into a classroom aid to tutor struggling students (something they are not only ill-equipped to do, but it does nothing to help them learn for themselves). In the rare cases where advanced students’ needs are taken into account, they may be offered acceleration which, while appreciated, will widen the ability gap with their peers, exacerbating the problem.

Instead of trying to provide differentiated instruction in a mixed-level group, it is better to offer flexible ability grouping (not tracking), where students are taught at whatever their current level may be, with the goal to help them progress to a more challenging level.

While math instruction tends to be linear, math itself is not. There are many math related topics that could be introduced for enrichment that might never be covered in a standard math curriculum (programming, secret codes, mental math, different numbering systems that aren’t base 10, modular arithmetic, fractals, etc.). Logic problems, math puzzles, and mentally challenging Problems of the Week offer another way to supplement. While I don’t have direct experience, I’ve also heard excellent things about programs like Beast Academy/AOPS.

My point is that, ideally, students should be grouped and instructed according to their ability level and that just as there are curricula options for on-level and struggling students, a curriculum offering enrichment options should be provided for advanced students as well.

Procrustes stretched the legs of his short guests to fit his bed. He did not stretch his bed to fit his tall guests, but instead cut off the legs of his tall guests to fit them into his bed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading and writing at a sophisticated level requires life experience that children haven't lived long enough to attain.

Not at all true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

That is ridiculous. Many HS don’t even offer Calculus. I took AB calculus as a HS senior which was the earliest I could possibly take it, and the only calculus offered. And not AP, because my school had no AP classes. I went to an Ivy and majored in a science. The colleges are aware of what limits exist for advanced coursework in most high schools.

Is this true?? I have never heard of calculus not being offered in high school. I know my dad even took it in the 70s in his small town, so did dh in his very small town too. It’s AP Calc and AP calc BC that’s not always offered.

Yes, even now there are many HSs across the US that do not offer Calculus. At least as of a few years ago, this included some smaller counties in S or SW Virginia. Calculus is fairly common in HSs located in large metro areas on either E or W coast.