Why is Math the Super Accelerated Subject?

[Anonymous]

I think it is really that math is the last vestige of tracking because it is easier to distinguish the topics taught at each level (geometry is different from alg II, etc). Also certain math classes are a prereq for certain science classes so there is a reasonable desire to get to calculus earlier. As others have noted, some districts have tried to get rid of math tracking (including briefly VA). At least in Arlington once kids are in high school, they just put the kids who were pushed ahead in math in classes with older kids, so the math classes are not harder than what other kids get - the advanced kids just see the material first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

That is ridiculous. Many HS don’t even offer Calculus. I took AB calculus as a HS senior which was the earliest I could possibly take it, and the only calculus offered. And not AP, because my school had no AP classes. I went to an Ivy and majored in a science. The colleges are aware of what limits exist for advanced coursework in most high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math is more concrete so it is easier to measure whether you know it or not. The skills involved in other areas are more judgment-based.

I was super accelerated in HS in the early 90s. In 6th grade they put me and several others in a 7th grade math class. So we took Calc as juniors. That was very rare - in my very competitive suburban public HS where 30-40 kids went to Ivies each year, only about five of us per year were pushed ahead.

I think the obsession with accelerating kids has gone overboard. The kids are super accelerated and what does this get them when they get to college? Not much. The rush to take countless APs as early as possible is nuts. And it is not because your precious genius snowflake is bored and needs to be challenged more. There are different ways to challenge a child and admissions committees have gotten lazy and let APs be a way for them to measure that.

It is nice that an increasing number of private schools have pushed back at this and abandoned APs. And their kids still get into great schools, and not solely because of money and/or legacy status. I recognize that for some kids, it is a way to save money by getting credits and graduating early, but for many, it is a false badge of perceived intellect. There is no rush.

But I'm sure all of the tiger magnet school parents will bite my head off on this.

I agree +100. Spouse and I were accelerated in HS and quickly realized in college that we didn't learn math well at all - even with 5s on AP exams and placing into higher math at Ivy undergrads. I've been thinking about math curriculum and math tracks for as long as we've had our kids. Two who are on the advanced math track and find no trouble with acceleration and one who has more trouble with acceleration but was always advanced in reading and writing. The kids have different strengths and I can't say that one is smarter or will be more successful than the other... the one strong in reading and writing began to shine junior year in AP Lang when it was clear that he was one of the best in the class. The recognitions came later with department awards, writing awards, etc. My other math kids had recognition early by being pulled out for special math, etc, but all that doesn't last long bc other kids catch up. Math is easy to measure and very easy to accelerate when kids are young and sponges. It's an easy way for moms to compare their kids with others. I'm glad all that is behind me now

OP again.... that's all so true. I went to a small suburban school and I was the very first student, in 40 years, to go to an Ivy. I also was the first student they ever accerlated in math... I had to beg to skip Algebra I, but I did it and got a 5 on AB in 11th grade. Then got to college and got my first B in calculus!

My daughter has had a very different trajectory with lots of math anxiety and perfectionism. She finally felt ready to make the leap to honors this year so she could hit AB in 12th. Honors in her school is the difference between tests and homework that only contain material explicitly taught versus having to extend and improvise on the flow. She's actually finally enjoying math and seeing her conquer challenging math has been an incredible joy. However, she feels, perhaps correctly but definitely unfortunately, that it's "too late" for her to explore how far she could get in STEM.

I’m a PP who has already said that I don’t think it hurts kids’ futures (even for STEM) to go to college without Calculus, as long as they are ready for it. Since she will already have had Calculus AB, I think she’ll be ready to pursue whatever STEM options she wants in college. While it may be too late to set her sights on MIT, I think most colleges offer more STEM opportunities than even the most advanced math students can take advantage of. Admittedly, I’m not an expert on colleges, but I highly recommend that she discuss the possibilities with someone who actually is before she gives up on STEM and closes the door on herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Math teachers are asking this too. Anyone who tried to take an AP English class as a freshman would be laughed at, but we are pushing AP math to that level. No one would try to skip Spanish 2 and go from 1 to 3, but everyone tries to skip prealgebra and jump to algebra 1 earlier.

I don’t know why we are only accelerating one subject.

And it's ridiculous to push so much. I'd rather have kids love math and do well in it. I know someone who graduated T20 in BME, got a full scholarship for MS from a T5 (in BME) and got into 3+ MD/PHD programs and ultimately choose one of the top. Guess what, that kid only Did regular Calc in HS. (and is only early 30s)
Extremely smart, advanced in STEM yet didn't take college calc in freshman year of HS. Imagine that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some kids have an innate ability with math. And obviously they should be encouraged to challenge themselves. And math is a subject you can’t dumb down. The school districts that are trying to kill math bc “equity” haven’t really succeeded.

But there are also kids that have an innate ability with English and writing. And those kids are getting crushed by the “equity” people.

So math remains a place where talent can shine. And the stellar humanities kids are told to whither and be bored bc the equity administrators can definitely dumb that down to hit their numbers.

I can’t see any differences between the teaching of English and writing in high schools currently and the teaching 30 years ago. There has always been some basic classes, middle level classes and AP classes.

Can you give some samples of how students who are more interested in the humanities are told to whither and be bored?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to a private HS.

It’s part of the reason so many private high schools are feeders to the most elite colleges. They focus on the “accelerated humanities” track as well - at a very high-level and a degree of sophistication you would ordinarily find in college level classes.

Colleges want that preparedness and level of intellectual discourse/intellectual vitality. They want you doing humanities-based independent studies in school… Not in a pay-to-play research organization outside of high school… but with a high school teacher on a niche or specialized area of interest in the humanities. With an academic written work product.

+100

Jesuit & Catholic HSs turn out amazing writers too. Our kids have to write in class too- to do it themselves- and not AI generate.

WSJ just had an article about elite universities turning back to blue books and oral exams as well since kids are only learning to cut and paste and not learning material. I think this going to separate private and public education even more. Big public universities can’t manage that- they don’t have the class sizes-student-prof ratio for it.

Even without the luxury of high tech help students have always found ways to cheat. Students in the top schools are the most likely to cheat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some kids have an innate ability with math. And obviously they should be encouraged to challenge themselves. And math is a subject you can’t dumb down. The school districts that are trying to kill math bc “equity” haven’t really succeeded.

But there are also kids that have an innate ability with English and writing. And those kids are getting crushed by the “equity” people.

So math remains a place where talent can shine. And the stellar humanities kids are told to whither and be bored bc the equity administrators can definitely dumb that down to hit their numbers.

I can’t see any differences between the teaching of English and writing in high schools currently and the teaching 30 years ago. There has always been some basic classes, middle level classes and AP classes.

Can you give some samples of how students who are more interested in the humanities are told to whither and be bored?

Uh FCPS’ adaptation of Benchmark. It’s all short reading passages with mostly multiple choice questions (some essay writing) k-6. Used both for AAP (advanced) and gen Ed. I think it gets better in high school and maybe middle school but that’s a long time tobe doing short passage reading.

[Anonymous]

Sputnik

Sputnik is the reason, with PRC now in the shoes of the USSR

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

This for the truly elite colleges...MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Harvard unhooked, Princeton. Second tier ones this may not be applicable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math teachers are asking this too. Anyone who tried to take an AP English class as a freshman would be laughed at, but we are pushing AP math to that level. No one would try to skip Spanish 2 and go from 1 to 3, but everyone tries to skip prealgebra and jump to algebra 1 earlier.

I don’t know why we are only accelerating one subject.

I think the opposite is true - some kids are ready for AP English much earlier and could accelerate in language studies too.

DP. I think that was the PP's point. Those kids who are super intelligent and excel at the humanities aren't allowed to take accelerated classes the way one could in math. It's extremely frustrating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to a private HS.

It’s part of the reason so many private high schools are feeders to the most elite colleges. They focus on the “accelerated humanities” track as well - at a very high-level and a degree of sophistication you would ordinarily find in college level classes.

Colleges want that preparedness and level of intellectual discourse/intellectual vitality. They want you doing humanities-based independent studies in school… Not in a pay-to-play research organization outside of high school… but with a high school teacher on a niche or specialized area of interest in the humanities. With an academic written work product.

Exactly. This is why most magnet schools and similar tend to be very STEM heavy. Teaching advanced humanities classes is a lot harder, and is often done better in smaller classes. It can't easily be mass-produced. It is often best done in privates (though there are obviously plenty of exceptions).

Colleges don't want a class that is 100% kids who took BC calc as sophomores and did science research and whatever else. They want a balanced class. And kids who can think and write critically and adapt to evolving situations.

I am so tired of the mentality from some people that their kid is "smarter" because they took more APs or took BC calc earlier than another kid. First of all, anyone who gets their jollies because they perceive their kid as "smarter" is sick. But also, this is not the sole measure of intellect and ability. But I hear it all the time.

Yep. I made a similar comment on another thread.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

That is ridiculous. Many HS don’t even offer Calculus. I took AB calculus as a HS senior which was the earliest I could possibly take it, and the only calculus offered. And not AP, because my school had no AP classes. I went to an Ivy and majored in a science. The colleges are aware of what limits exist for advanced coursework in most high schools.

I think that poster is ridiculous. My kid is a sophomore at any Ivy plus and took BC in 12th grade.

[Anonymous]

I agree with PP about the tracking. My kids were all tracked and advanced in math in ES because they were supper bored in the regular math track. But then the track naturally progresses, and there’s not really a way to get off it iit it turns out you aren’t super into math. Because you have to take math 4 years my kid that doesn’t like math is probably going to end up stuck in taking AP calculus, probably BC. I wish there was a way to slow it down when they get a bit older. HS math is like a totally different skill set than ES math — just because you are bored with multiplication in 4th grade doesn’t mean you will love calculus.

[Anonymous]

Reading and writing at a sophisticated level requires life experience that children haven't lived long enough to attain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

This for the truly elite colleges...MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Harvard unhooked, Princeton. Second tier ones this may not be applicable.

i
Completely false. NO one needs to go past calculus in high school for any college, and doing to does not mean you will get in over kids who didn't.