Redshirting consequences at Lafayette

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that DCPS should change their policy to accommodate families who intend to leave DCPS for private or suburban schools is more than a little silly. Surely you guys see that? Why would they do something that facilitates attrition?

I am going to ignore the "needs" of parents who want to redshirt in order to ensure their kid is not at a disadvantage in private, or for other selfish reasons like sports. Simply don't care, those are not good reasons to change a policy or carve out an exception.

However, I think it IS worthwhile to discuss how DCPS has two conflicting policies that relate directly to the redshirting issue:

- The cut off date is designed to help make kids eligible for school earlier, which helps parents with childcare costs in a city with some of the highest childcare costs in the country.

- DCPS pushes a highly academic K curriculum with the goal of lifting test scores in reading and math, especially among at risk kids. This can vary a bit from school to school, but overall DCPS's K curriculum is more rigorous than at many charters, privates, or suburban schools, and it results in more time in seats and more worksheets, and less physical activity and free play time.

And therein lies the problem. If DCPS K curriculum looked like it did 20 or 30 years ago, the early age cutoff wouldn't be a big deal because K would look a lot more like PK and would be developmentally appropriate for the kids with summer and September birthdays who are 4 or just-turned 5. Instead they push younger kids into K classrooms and then expect them to acclimate to a developmentally inappropriate classroom environment. This not only results in some parents wanting to redshirt, it also creates more "behavioral problems" that are really just kids who are too young being expected to sit still and pay attention before they are ready.

A lot of DCPS schools also still engage in old-fashioned disciplinary methods that exacerbate this problem, like taking recess away as a punishment (idiotic, as many behavior problems in K are *caused* by lack of physical outlets and release) and using public point systems instead of group accountability (encourages comparison and shaming likely to compound behavioral issues, not solve them).

DCPS absolutely should be challenged on these policies and asked to account for the way in which they push young kids into classrooms, give them a developmentally inappropriate schedule and curriculum, and then punish them for non-compliance (at the age of 5!). It's a problem.

But these entitled Lafayette families are distracting from the real problem with this nonsense.

I actually agree that the K curriculum in DCPS is not age appropriate, as awesome as it is that they seemed to get everyone reading by the end of the year. They hyper focus on literacy, and everything else suffers -- math, playtime, social time, projects, etc. I actually think the 1st grade curriculum is more balanced and fun.

I know many kids, mine included, for whom K was their least favorite year.

This is a very entitled viewpoint. I thought the K curriculum was fantastic and the focus on literacy is really important for most DC kids.

DP but it isn't entitled to want an age appropriate environment for your kid. You can focus literacy and provide a proper phonics based curriculum but still ensure kids are moving around, getting some free play and socialization, etc. Low income kids need, and deserve, all if that too.

I want to concur with PP that K was my August birthday's least favorite year, and that was in spite of having a really great teacher draw that year. The problem was expectations. That is the one year DD had behavioral issues in class (outbursts when she was frustrated, and also refusing to participate in certain activities). She also had a bunch of accidents that year despite having almost none in PK4. She was just not ready for the classroom expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, MCPS says children who will turn five years old between September 2 and October 15, 2025 are eligible for consideration for the early entrance to kindergarten process.

They are, but it is very, very rare that this is approved. I don't know anyone who has gone through the process, myself included, and had their kid start early. Our daughter had done 2 years of PK in DCPS and was an early reader, and we were told she wasn't ready. The state requires MCPS to evaluate kids, but not to place them early. Meanwhile, red shirting of summer birthday kids is relatively common, especially with how academic kindergarten in MCPS is. (We left DC before K, so not sure if the same in true in DCPS.) -NP

Its a very sketchy evaluation as they aren't clear the standards and it is different at every school. I don't think holding back in MCPS is that common, maybe in the wealthier schools but I don't know any kids held back. Our school wouldn't let us test. We went private for a few years as I wasn't holding my kid back for the school being selfish and self serving.

Definitely more common with people with wealth/income because they can afford another year of PK.

It also helps that MD explicitly allows this -- all you have to do is file a form with your school district that your child is not ready and will be in PK, and you can delay K by a year. See this form, which per the start is automatically approved upon submission: https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/pdf/560-19.pdf

"I am applying for a one-year exemption to delay my child's entrance to kindergarten due to immaturity."

Interesting about MCPS. My brother didn't send his kid to kindergarten until halfway through the year. Not sure how they managed that. April birthday, too, so not like he just made the cut off. A very clear case of should have been sent on time

I'm not entirely clear on what happened during that half year of kindergarten, but MCPS had him repeat a full year of kinder. I do wonder if he had the full year of they would have pushed him to first grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's an argument for red shirting: it potentially can save the school and District money on IEP and 504s. It also helps keep the older class on track by not having a student who is emotionally immature or who would benefit from doing a lower grade level work.

Its a tough issues for families and schools where kids are near the cut off date.

It doesn't save as if a child is delayed they will need help and the longer you wait the more a child will struggle and the more help they will need. If your child is struggling and you know it as a parent you need to get them help before K. If your child needs to be held back, you failed to get your child the help they needed if its something like immaturity. However, no kids should be mature going into K. No 5 year old is mature.

Rigid thinking about the cutoffs is how public schools usually operate, however that doesn't make it right.

If your kid is within a few months of the cutoff, making them young for the grade, any immaturity can easily be within normal.

Take a kid who is old for their grade and doing well, then change the cutoffs and make them young for grade instead, and they may struggle.

The cutoffs are arbitrary.

There needs to be a cut off. No kids are mature. And, an older kid isn't more mature, they are older. If they are with younger kids and behaving as those kids are, they are immature. Its insane to have kids 2 years apart. Its more of an isssue when you have a 13-14 year old taking classes with a 18-19-20 year old in high school.

Why do we need rigid cutoffs? Also why would a 13-14 yo be taking classes with an 18-20 yo?

Many private schools operate with some flexibility around the cutoffs. They also offer a far superior product to DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]That said, it doesn't seem that these kids in the article are September birthdays as I'm 100% sure these parents would have mentioned it if that was the case.

+100. They absolutely would have said if the birthdays were August or September. I noticed she just told the reporter her kid was “old for their grade.” In other words, currently the age for kindergarten in DCPS and definitely 1st grade next year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Principal should turn them in to CFSA for not sending their kids to Kindergarten when they were of age.

They should!

Then their kids would HAVE to be retained in kindergarten as per DCPS truancy policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Principal should turn them in to CFSA for not sending their kids to Kindergarten when they were of age.

They should!

Then their kids would HAVE to be retained in kindergarten as per DCPS truancy policy.

They wouldn't even have to send them - just enroll them 🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of a September birthday, the DCPS age cutoff being different from all the local private schools and Maryland (Sept 30 vs 1), makes this very tricky to navigate. If you anticipate wanting private for high school but want public before, your kid might be more than a year younger than their classmates since privates redshirt frequently.

DC is one of 5 “states” with a birthday cutoff after September 1. This is done as a social policy to save families a year of childcare (great!), but goes against prevailing educational guidance about learning readiness (not great!).

Yes. Agreed that September birthdays are really difficult as DCPS is out of sync with all the privates, parochials, MCPS, FCPS, ACPS, etc.

That said, it doesn't seem that these kids in the article are September birthdays as I'm 100% sure these parents would have mentioned it if that was the case.

I know for a fact that one of the three children is a September birthday. And that family moved to dc from moco about a year or so ago

So . . . they moved here in time to have had their kid start kindergarten on time last fall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's an argument for red shirting: it potentially can save the school and District money on IEP and 504s. It also helps keep the older class on track by not having a student who is emotionally immature or who would benefit from doing a lower grade level work.

Its a tough issues for families and schools where kids are near the cut off date.

It doesn't save as if a child is delayed they will need help and the longer you wait the more a child will struggle and the more help they will need. If your child is struggling and you know it as a parent you need to get them help before K. If your child needs to be held back, you failed to get your child the help they needed if its something like immaturity. However, no kids should be mature going into K. No 5 year old is mature.

Rigid thinking about the cutoffs is how public schools usually operate, however that doesn't make it right.

If your kid is within a few months of the cutoff, making them young for the grade, any immaturity can easily be within normal.

Take a kid who is old for their grade and doing well, then change the cutoffs and make them young for grade instead, and they may struggle.

The cutoffs are arbitrary.

There needs to be a cut off. No kids are mature. And, an older kid isn't more mature, they are older. If they are with younger kids and behaving as those kids are, they are immature. Its insane to have kids 2 years apart. Its more of an isssue when you have a 13-14 year old taking classes with a 18-19-20 year old in high school.

Why do we need rigid cutoffs? Also why would a 13-14 yo be taking classes with an 18-20 yo?

Many private schools operate with some flexibility around the cutoffs. They also offer a far superior product to DCPS.

Stop comparing a school district with thousands of kids and a high percentage of kids with special needs and diverse socioeconomic status to a private school. It’s such a ridiculous comparison. It’s like comparing DCPS to Scarsdale NY public schools. It’s a waste of time.

And yes they do need a strict cut off for grade levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's an argument for red shirting: it potentially can save the school and District money on IEP and 504s. It also helps keep the older class on track by not having a student who is emotionally immature or who would benefit from doing a lower grade level work.

Its a tough issues for families and schools where kids are near the cut off date.

But this just essentially makes May or June birthdays the youngest and just pushes everything back. There is simply always going to be someone unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's an argument for red shirting: it potentially can save the school and District money on IEP and 504s. It also helps keep the older class on track by not having a student who is emotionally immature or who would benefit from doing a lower grade level work.

Its a tough issues for families and schools where kids are near the cut off date.

It doesn't save as if a child is delayed they will need help and the longer you wait the more a child will struggle and the more help they will need. If your child is struggling and you know it as a parent you need to get them help before K. If your child needs to be held back, you failed to get your child the help they needed if its something like immaturity. However, no kids should be mature going into K. No 5 year old is mature.

Rigid thinking about the cutoffs is how public schools usually operate, however that doesn't make it right.

If your kid is within a few months of the cutoff, making them young for the grade, any immaturity can easily be within normal.

Take a kid who is old for their grade and doing well, then change the cutoffs and make them young for grade instead, and they may struggle.

The cutoffs are arbitrary.

There needs to be a cut off. No kids are mature. And, an older kid isn't more mature, they are older. If they are with younger kids and behaving as those kids are, they are immature. Its insane to have kids 2 years apart. Its more of an isssue when you have a 13-14 year old taking classes with a 18-19-20 year old in high school.

Why do we need rigid cutoffs? Also why would a 13-14 yo be taking classes with an 18-20 yo?

Many private schools operate with some flexibility around the cutoffs. They also offer a far superior product to DCPS.

Stop comparing a school district with thousands of kids and a high percentage of kids with special needs and diverse socioeconomic status to a private school. It’s such a ridiculous comparison. It’s like comparing DCPS to Scarsdale NY public schools. It’s a waste of time.

And yes they do need a strict cut off for grade levels.

For the unwashed masses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's an argument for red shirting: it potentially can save the school and District money on IEP and 504s. It also helps keep the older class on track by not having a student who is emotionally immature or who would benefit from doing a lower grade level work.

Its a tough issues for families and schools where kids are near the cut off date.

or - if you enroll you child on time and they have a learning disability, it can be identified earlier and consume less resources because of early intervention.

[Anonymous]

This rage around (gasp!) possible disrespect for the apparently sacrosanct birthday cutoff date - which was several months later when I moved here not that long ago - is (sorry) ridiculous. I say this as someone with the opposite complaint as these families have: my own kid - who would have been on the right side of the old, pre standardized test era cutoff - now has to spend 90% of PK4 as a 5 year old learning absolutely nothing new, because they’re a few weeks on the wrong side of this apparently magic, infallible and universally applicable birthday cutoff.

Maybe a solution might be, you know - just let people make decisions for their own damn kids, whom they know better than anyone else does…or at least, create an appeals process where you can advocate for a smidge of flexibility for your child. Are you seriously going to contend there are ZERO kids in the system who might not benefit from being in an earlier or later grade anytime in the four years of school before age 7…even though a significant percentage would have been in a different grade at the same age as recently as 2012 (or even now, if they lived somewhere less enlightened like [checks notes] New York City, which has both a 12/31 cutoff and much greater flexibility around delays)?

Kids aren’t cookie cutter identical - there’s a VERY wide range of abilities and needs. Forcing a delayed kid into a grade he’s not ready for isn’t great. Neither is holding back a gifted kid - especially in a school system with almost zero support for gifted kids to begin with besides grade advancement! - for the first four years of their DCPS education (long enough for them to not only fail to reach their potential, but develop a deep and abiding aversion to school.) If grade skipping is an option for some advanced kids - why not during the most pointless years of schooling, where you learn the least? If some socially delayed kids need extra time to mature - why not let them start a bit later? The objective isn’t supposed to be making everyone “follow the rules” - which usually represent zero burden for those who insist loudest, who seem to delight in forcing those most affected to suffer. It’s supposed to be supporting and educating kids.

Pretend these women live in a neighborhood or belong to a demographic that you believe allows them the right to advocate for their children. Pretend that all of us do. You can still make whatever choices you want for your own kids - if you find DC to be infallible and all decisions of its education system to be perfect ecosystem and bear no questioning, by all means act accordingly. Others may beg to differ. Get over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Pretend these women live in a neighborhood or belong to a demographic that you believe allows them the right to advocate for their children. Pretend that all of us do. You can still make whatever choices you want for your own kids - if you find DC to be infallible and all decisions of its education system to be perfect ecosystem and bear no questioning, by all means act accordingly. Others may beg to differ. Get over it.

Oh please -- it's a little silly to suggest that on this board, people don't think white residents of upper NW have the right to advocate for their kids. (I say that as a white resident of upper NW.)

[Anonymous]

Having a rigid cutoff protects kids who's parents can't afford to play with the cutoff. Every class only has kids within a year of each other. If parents who could afford to pay daycare for one more year or send to private school for a year are allowed to redshirt, then the distribution in the classrooms grows. What happens to the September birthdays who went on time who are now over a year younger then the redshirted kids? It's not fair to them to be in class with kids who could be up to 23 months older...or realistically, 18 months older. People most often redshirt boys. Why should my petit September birthday girl be in class with a boy 18 or 20 months older than her? The physical size of the kids will make a difference for schools sports, but also now teachers will have to teach across more than a year of developmental differences and capabilities. Rich parents will redshirt, parents of less means won't, and kids of less means will suffer. If these parents want this kind of redshirting choice, then they are free to send their kids to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having a rigid cutoff protects kids who's parents can't afford to play with the cutoff. Every class only has kids within a year of each other. If parents who could afford to pay daycare for one more year or send to private school for a year are allowed to redshirt, then the distribution in the classrooms grows. What happens to the September birthdays who went on time who are now over a year younger then the redshirted kids? It's not fair to them to be in class with kids who could be up to 23 months older...or realistically, 18 months older. People most often redshirt boys. Why should my petit September birthday girl be in class with a boy 18 or 20 months older than her? The physical size of the kids will make a difference for schools sports, but also now teachers will have to teach across more than a year of developmental differences and capabilities. Rich parents will redshirt, parents of less means won't, and kids of less means will suffer. If these parents want this kind of redshirting choice, then they are free to send their kids to private school.

Because boys' brain development is delayed in comparison with girls, that's why. And in public schools, we would reward kids who can sit still, keep quiet, do worksheets, and take tests, which heavily favors girls. It's both biology and our crappy educational system.