High schoolers can’t write

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students even assigned to read entire books in ES and MS? My neighbor told me her kids have never been expected to read an entire book, only excerpts. WTH? Why?

I don’t think your neighbor knows what she’s talking about. In elementary school they may read excerpts, but kids definitely read whole books in middle school language classes.

While individual teachers might assign whole books, assigning excerpts from books is a common problem across MCPS in MS and HS.

They are now required to teach at least one novel study per quarter in secondary English classes in MCPS.

Our school does 2/quarter -- one whole-class novel and one in book circles that varies by reading level.

Oh boy! One novel study! How ever will the kids handle all of that.

By secondary do you mean MS or HS?

Both.

The fact that they’re only required to teach one book per quarter is utterly pathetic.

I don’t see the problem with one anchor text a quarter. So you teach The Odyssey as an anchor text. You throw in related texts, such as Atwood poetry or nonfiction about the ancient city of Troy. Students do related research to find criticism, and then write their own.

Easily enough content for a quarter.

[Anonymous]

Poor kid. That's me. After years and years of trying to learn to write, I still can't. I can't write in English and definitely can't write in my mother tongue.
See if Elements of Style can help them. If I have to write an essay, I find someone else's essay and try to follow the three paragraphs or 5. I even mess up the introduction and the conclusion - they sound so similar to me.
I've never needed to write anything for work, but I don't think your child will be as lucky.
I don't enjoy writing, because my mind wonders to more interesting things usually. Even though I studied seven foreign languages, my vocabulary is very small.
As a child,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students even assigned to read entire books in ES and MS? My neighbor told me her kids have never been expected to read an entire book, only excerpts. WTH? Why?

I don’t think your neighbor knows what she’s talking about. In elementary school they may read excerpts, but kids definitely read whole books in middle school language classes.

While individual teachers might assign whole books, assigning excerpts from books is a common problem across MCPS in MS and HS.

They are now required to teach at least one novel study per quarter in secondary English classes in MCPS.

Our school does 2/quarter -- one whole-class novel and one in book circles that varies by reading level.

Oh boy! One novel study! How ever will the kids handle all of that.

By secondary do you mean MS or HS?

Both.

The fact that they’re only required to teach one book per quarter is utterly pathetic.

I don’t see the problem with one anchor text a quarter. So you teach The Odyssey as an anchor text. You throw in related texts, such as Atwood poetry or nonfiction about the ancient city of Troy. Students do related research to find criticism, and then write their own.

Easily enough content for a quarter.

that’s not how it was described. it was described as one book per quarter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

I posted above. (I’m the teacher who transitioned to a private school.) I have nothing but respect for public school teachers. I’ve been there and I know how the job has changed since I started teaching in 2000. It’s easily 3-4 times harder now. Class sizes are up while planning time is down. Side duties and obligations are astronomically up. (And just because you see similar class sizes doesn’t mean much. Teachers now have MORE classes. An extra section means an extra 30 papers to grade.) Half of a teacher’s job is outside the classroom. You don’t see what they do, nor are you aware of how little time they have to do it.

There are teachers all over this region devoting full weekends to their jobs and still not catching up. You can say we are “making excuses”. No, we are just telling you how it is.

So what’s your solution? It’s absolutely clear MCPS isn’t producing students who are meeting standards for reading, writing, and math.

No county, including MCPS, is going to do what it needs to do.

English classes in high school need to be capped at the low 20s. Teachers need to be given extra planning and fewer extra duties so they have time AT work to provide feedback. They shouldn’t be expected to do it every Sat/Sun, which is what happens to the current teachers with heavy grading loads.

Curricula should be rewritten to emphasize the writing process, including revision exercises. (Frankly, practicing teachers should write it. I’ve been very unimpressed by the curricula purchased by the counties. Plus, teachers know their students and communities more than some distant company does.)

Bring back paper and pen. Not everything should be online. Technology has its time and place, of course, but it is far too often a crutch. Let students learn how to work (and draft) without it.

That’s great, but much of it is completely unrealistic, so really you’re telling us we need to just accept that our kids won’t learn to write without being taught at home and never ask the teachers to do anything different than what they’re doing now.

So what is YOUR solution? Because it seems to be to demand more from the very people we demand too much of already. Teaching is no longer sustainable. That’s why we have this shortage.

The solution is to change the structure of our schools. Teachers MUST be afforded time at work to complete work. And teachers, as the experts, should have more of a voice than for-profit curriculum companies. These are county-level changes, though, and hard to do.

So we will do what we always do: We’ll take the easy way out, blame teachers for not doing enough, and we’ll carry on.

I pulled my kid out. I’m done with all of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students even assigned to read entire books in ES and MS? My neighbor told me her kids have never been expected to read an entire book, only excerpts. WTH? Why?

I don’t think your neighbor knows what she’s talking about. In elementary school they may read excerpts, but kids definitely read whole books in middle school language classes.

While individual teachers might assign whole books, assigning excerpts from books is a common problem across MCPS in MS and HS.

They are now required to teach at least one novel study per quarter in secondary English classes in MCPS.

Our school does 2/quarter -- one whole-class novel and one in book circles that varies by reading level.

Oh boy! One novel study! How ever will the kids handle all of that.

By secondary do you mean MS or HS?

Both.

The fact that they’re only required to teach one book per quarter is utterly pathetic.

I don’t see the problem with one anchor text a quarter. So you teach The Odyssey as an anchor text. You throw in related texts, such as Atwood poetry or nonfiction about the ancient city of Troy. Students do related research to find criticism, and then write their own.

Easily enough content for a quarter.

that’s not how it was described. it was described as one book per quarter.

That’s usually what one book means. It’s an anchor text, and it’s supplemented and reinforced with related works from other genres.

A unit would also contain various writing tasks. Perhaps one is argumentative and requires cited research. Another writing assignment may be narrative, providing students with an opportunity to be creative. (This also provides teachers the chance to explain other grammatical principles you don’t get in persuasive writing, like how to punctuate dialogue.)

So often, people get angry at teachers without reason, likely because they don’t know the behind-the-scenes work. It’s shortcut to say one book a quarter. That doesn’t mean that’s all they are doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

I posted above. (I’m the teacher who transitioned to a private school.) I have nothing but respect for public school teachers. I’ve been there and I know how the job has changed since I started teaching in 2000. It’s easily 3-4 times harder now. Class sizes are up while planning time is down. Side duties and obligations are astronomically up. (And just because you see similar class sizes doesn’t mean much. Teachers now have MORE classes. An extra section means an extra 30 papers to grade.) Half of a teacher’s job is outside the classroom. You don’t see what they do, nor are you aware of how little time they have to do it.

There are teachers all over this region devoting full weekends to their jobs and still not catching up. You can say we are “making excuses”. No, we are just telling you how it is.

So what’s your solution? It’s absolutely clear MCPS isn’t producing students who are meeting standards for reading, writing, and math.

No county, including MCPS, is going to do what it needs to do.

English classes in high school need to be capped at the low 20s. Teachers need to be given extra planning and fewer extra duties so they have time AT work to provide feedback. They shouldn’t be expected to do it every Sat/Sun, which is what happens to the current teachers with heavy grading loads.

Curricula should be rewritten to emphasize the writing process, including revision exercises. (Frankly, practicing teachers should write it. I’ve been very unimpressed by the curricula purchased by the counties. Plus, teachers know their students and communities more than some distant company does.)

Bring back paper and pen. Not everything should be online. Technology has its time and place, of course, but it is far too often a crutch. Let students learn how to work (and draft) without it.

That’s great, but much of it is completely unrealistic, so really you’re telling us we need to just accept that our kids won’t learn to write without being taught at home and never ask the teachers to do anything different than what they’re doing now.

So what is YOUR solution? Because it seems to be to demand more from the very people we demand too much of already. Teaching is no longer sustainable. That’s why we have this shortage.

The solution is to change the structure of our schools. Teachers MUST be afforded time at work to complete work. And teachers, as the experts, should have more of a voice than for-profit curriculum companies. These are county-level changes, though, and hard to do.

So we will do what we always do: We’ll take the easy way out, blame teachers for not doing enough, and we’ll carry on.

I pulled my kid out. I’m done with all of it.

Okay. Then why are you on this thread complaining?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

My daughter in in AP Lang now and I'm looking forward to the writing instruction!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

I posted above. (I’m the teacher who transitioned to a private school.) I have nothing but respect for public school teachers. I’ve been there and I know how the job has changed since I started teaching in 2000. It’s easily 3-4 times harder now. Class sizes are up while planning time is down. Side duties and obligations are astronomically up. (And just because you see similar class sizes doesn’t mean much. Teachers now have MORE classes. An extra section means an extra 30 papers to grade.) Half of a teacher’s job is outside the classroom. You don’t see what they do, nor are you aware of how little time they have to do it.

There are teachers all over this region devoting full weekends to their jobs and still not catching up. You can say we are “making excuses”. No, we are just telling you how it is.

So what’s your solution? It’s absolutely clear MCPS isn’t producing students who are meeting standards for reading, writing, and math.

No county, including MCPS, is going to do what it needs to do.

English classes in high school need to be capped at the low 20s. Teachers need to be given extra planning and fewer extra duties so they have time AT work to provide feedback. They shouldn’t be expected to do it every Sat/Sun, which is what happens to the current teachers with heavy grading loads.

Curricula should be rewritten to emphasize the writing process, including revision exercises. (Frankly, practicing teachers should write it. I’ve been very unimpressed by the curricula purchased by the counties. Plus, teachers know their students and communities more than some distant company does.)

Bring back paper and pen. Not everything should be online. Technology has its time and place, of course, but it is far too often a crutch. Let students learn how to work (and draft) without it.

That’s great, but much of it is completely unrealistic, so really you’re telling us we need to just accept that our kids won’t learn to write without being taught at home and never ask the teachers to do anything different than what they’re doing now.

So what is YOUR solution? Because it seems to be to demand more from the very people we demand too much of already. Teaching is no longer sustainable. That’s why we have this shortage.

The solution is to change the structure of our schools. Teachers MUST be afforded time at work to complete work. And teachers, as the experts, should have more of a voice than for-profit curriculum companies. These are county-level changes, though, and hard to do.

So we will do what we always do: We’ll take the easy way out, blame teachers for not doing enough, and we’ll carry on.

I pulled my kid out. I’m done with all of it.

Okay. Then why are you on this thread complaining?

Because my kid should be able to receive a good public education in the richest country in the world.

Instead my taxes are going to some crap system and I’m getting nothing for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

I posted above. (I’m the teacher who transitioned to a private school.) I have nothing but respect for public school teachers. I’ve been there and I know how the job has changed since I started teaching in 2000. It’s easily 3-4 times harder now. Class sizes are up while planning time is down. Side duties and obligations are astronomically up. (And just because you see similar class sizes doesn’t mean much. Teachers now have MORE classes. An extra section means an extra 30 papers to grade.) Half of a teacher’s job is outside the classroom. You don’t see what they do, nor are you aware of how little time they have to do it.

There are teachers all over this region devoting full weekends to their jobs and still not catching up. You can say we are “making excuses”. No, we are just telling you how it is.

So what’s your solution? It’s absolutely clear MCPS isn’t producing students who are meeting standards for reading, writing, and math.

No county, including MCPS, is going to do what it needs to do.

English classes in high school need to be capped at the low 20s. Teachers need to be given extra planning and fewer extra duties so they have time AT work to provide feedback. They shouldn’t be expected to do it every Sat/Sun, which is what happens to the current teachers with heavy grading loads.

Curricula should be rewritten to emphasize the writing process, including revision exercises. (Frankly, practicing teachers should write it. I’ve been very unimpressed by the curricula purchased by the counties. Plus, teachers know their students and communities more than some distant company does.)

Bring back paper and pen. Not everything should be online. Technology has its time and place, of course, but it is far too often a crutch. Let students learn how to work (and draft) without it.

That’s great, but much of it is completely unrealistic, so really you’re telling us we need to just accept that our kids won’t learn to write without being taught at home and never ask the teachers to do anything different than what they’re doing now.

So what is YOUR solution? Because it seems to be to demand more from the very people we demand too much of already. Teaching is no longer sustainable. That’s why we have this shortage.

The solution is to change the structure of our schools. Teachers MUST be afforded time at work to complete work. And teachers, as the experts, should have more of a voice than for-profit curriculum companies. These are county-level changes, though, and hard to do.

So we will do what we always do: We’ll take the easy way out, blame teachers for not doing enough, and we’ll carry on.

I pulled my kid out. I’m done with all of it.

Okay. Then why are you on this thread complaining?

Because my kid should be able to receive a good public education in the richest country in the world.

Instead my taxes are going to some crap system and I’m getting nothing for it.

Then take on the system, not the individual teachers. The teachers in a public school system do not have the autonomy private teachers have. (I should know. I’ve worked in both.)

Public school teachers deliver the content they are told to deliver, often to overcrowded classes. They are not provided with adequate resources, time in particular.

But too often on DCUM we take the lazy way out and blame the teachers. The ones who remain, and I can’t count myself among them because I went to a better situation myself, are doing what they can in a terrible situation they did not create.

It’s widely accepted that privates are stronger when it comes to writing. No, that isn’t acceptable. But the situations are not equal, and public school teachers can do little to correct that on their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two different problems being discussed here.

1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.

2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).

Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.

I went to private school. Students had a spelling/vocabulary text book that included grammar starting in 1st grade. And we had homework using that book every night. By 6th grade we had a formal grammar textbook and diagrammed sentences.

Additionally, we read literature…not the ridiculous benchmark nonsense. And we had writing assignments everyday.

Plus: they taught us how to memorize, study for tests, and research and draft lengthy reports.

FTR, private school kids aren’t special; anyone can learn if schools actually teach the proper skills.

Same experience but want to emphasize the bolded above. My kid who is in private is definitely not smarter than her former MCPS peers. She is just being trained better. And for those who might argue that wealthy kids have a leg up - well, maybe but we are definitely not wealthy. Even your cheapest Catholic school in the area will do this. Sometimes your public school aftercare costs more than Catholic school tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS does not teach grammar, spelling, and writing skills depending on the teacher. Only a few give feedback and help kids improve. You need to pay attention as a parent and help your kids.

Last year, my DD asked the teacher if she could provide feedback, and she said that the ways she does it is through the rubric. No individualized feedback. Not even a sentence that says "good job with X but needs work on Y"

What does this mean?

[Anonymous]

I wish mcps would move away from it's social justice, social emotional learning, anti-racism high horse and teach actusl academics. I've spent hundreds of hours tutoring my child to fill the immense gaps in her education. When I asked the elementary school to provide her with written feedback on her terrible writing they acted like I was out of my mind for asking for this..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish mcps would move away from it's social justice, social emotional learning, anti-racism high horse and teach actusl academics. I've spent hundreds of hours tutoring my child to fill the immense gaps in her education. When I asked the elementary school to provide her with written feedback on her terrible writing they acted like I was out of my mind for asking for this..

Ditto. Nothing wrong with all the social justice crap, but a lot of it is a distraction from actually focusing on education.

Teachers are overworked and kids get passed along no matter their deficiencies. By high school it is very, very hard to focus on basic writing skills. Students often just don’t care and parents would complain if grades are affected.

A lot of classes are encouraged not to include grammar/spelling as part of the grade in the subject. However it can get to the point where I cannot even understand student writing now. Or it is obvious they just cut and pasted it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS does not teach grammar, spelling, and writing skills depending on the teacher. Only a few give feedback and help kids improve. You need to pay attention as a parent and help your kids.

Last year, my DD asked the teacher if she could provide feedback, and she said that the ways she does it is through the rubric. No individualized feedback. Not even a sentence that says "good job with X but needs work on Y"

While my kids lacked explicit instruction in grammar in elementary school, I know for a fact that the majority of my kids English and social studies teachers from middle school on provided feedback on written assignments. Some were more specific and helpful than others but it was rare to not see anything. I was actually annoyed my kids didn’t take the time to read it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS does not teach grammar, spelling, and writing skills depending on the teacher. Only a few give feedback and help kids improve. You need to pay attention as a parent and help your kids.

Last year, my DD asked the teacher if she could provide feedback, and she said that the ways she does it is through the rubric. No individualized feedback. Not even a sentence that says "good job with X but needs work on Y"

While my kids lacked explicit instruction in grammar in elementary school, I know for a fact that the majority of my kids English and social studies teachers from middle school on provided feedback on written assignments. Some were more specific and helpful than others but it was rare to not see anything. I was actually annoyed my kids didn’t take the time to read it!

You couldn’t have sat down and read it with them?