AAP drama

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...and again, this thread got moved back to AAP.

MODS - it should NOT be here, it should be in the general forum. The point of the thread is to include feedback from people who don't have kids in AAP! Those people do not spend time in the AAP forum.

The point of the thread seemed to be to villainize children and the AAP program 🤷

That was my impression as well. What the children said in OP's story was the issue, which is a problem with those particular kids -- could be mean or just poor communication skills. Dismantling AAP won't fix that. The school system should be teaching every kid where they are and AAP is one way to do it. It isn't perfect but it is a robust process that allows each kid to be evaluated rather than groupings that often focus on the "pick me" kids and miss others who aren't getting challenged or aren't getting helped.

It's worthwhile to question the approach Fairfax takes to implement an AAP program and its impact on all kids, whether alternative approaches could be taken, etc.

+1
It should have been questioned long ago. Flexible groupings are the best way for kids to learn - it's easy to move up or down as needed without being locked into one group or given a broad label that often isn't applicable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...and again, this thread got moved back to AAP.

MODS - it should NOT be here, it should be in the general forum. The point of the thread is to include feedback from people who don't have kids in AAP! Those people do not spend time in the AAP forum.

The point of the thread seemed to be to villainize children and the AAP program 🤷

That was my impression as well. What the children said in OP's story was the issue, which is a problem with those particular kids -- could be mean or just poor communication skills. Dismantling AAP won't fix that. The school system should be teaching every kid where they are and AAP is one way to do it. It isn't perfect but it is a robust process that allows each kid to be evaluated rather than groupings that often focus on the "pick me" kids and miss others who aren't getting challenged or aren't getting helped.

It's worthwhile to question the approach Fairfax takes to implement an AAP program and its impact on all kids, whether alternative approaches could be taken, etc.

DP, and to this effect, feedback should involve parents who don't have kids in AAP. It's frustrating that AAP parents are so dismissive of incidents such as this.

DP. Totally agree. AAP parents, upon hearing the experiences of GE kids (like the ones described here) are extremely dismissive. "It must be THOSE certain kids," or "Your kid must have a bad circle of friends." No. Once kids are told they've been accepted into AAP it's like a switch goes off and they actually do think they're smarter than those who were not selected. Many of them will voice this out loud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I have a similar story. My DD was told by some other girls on the bus that they were all smart and she wasn't, because they all got into AAP and she didn't. The sad part about all of this is that I know the other kids were parent referrals, and I didn't understand enough about AAP to refer my kid with a 130 CogAT composite (at a Title I school), meaning that my "not smart" DD had higher test scores than the "smart" girls who were bullying her. Then, she got rejected when we applied in 3rd, despite having a nearly perfect GBRS to go along with the 130 CogAT, as well as being above grade level in both reading and math.

Across the next 8 years, my kid got pass advanced on every SOL with perfect scores on most of them, a 98th percentile IAAT, straight As, a 5 on an AP test taken in 9th grade, and another 4 APs in 10th. She also flew through the math and completed AP Calc in 10th grade.

The AAP label is pretty meaningless, and kids will do fine even without it. My DD was pretty salty about the whole thing, though, and it took quite a bit of time for her to regain her confidence after FCPS and her peers deemed her as "not smart."

THIS. Same with my DD. Even now, after having excelled in high school, she says the worst insult she can think of is to be called "dumb." That has stayed with her all these years, even though she's the furthest thing from "dumb." The way AAP is implemented - at age seven - is incredibly damaging. And, I'll add - it's also damaging to those kids who are told they are "smarter" and "more special." Once they hit high school and realize that actually isn't the case, it can be a hard realization to swallow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I have a similar story. My DD was told by some other girls on the bus that they were all smart and she wasn't, because they all got into AAP and she didn't. The sad part about all of this is that I know the other kids were parent referrals, and I didn't understand enough about AAP to refer my kid with a 130 CogAT composite (at a Title I school), meaning that my "not smart" DD had higher test scores than the "smart" girls who were bullying her. Then, she got rejected when we applied in 3rd, despite having a nearly perfect GBRS to go along with the 130 CogAT, as well as being above grade level in both reading and math.

Across the next 8 years, my kid got pass advanced on every SOL with perfect scores on most of them, a 98th percentile IAAT, straight As, a 5 on an AP test taken in 9th grade, and another 4 APs in 10th. She also flew through the math and completed AP Calc in 10th grade.

The AAP label is pretty meaningless, and kids will do fine even without it. My DD was pretty salty about the whole thing, though, and it took quite a bit of time for her to regain her confidence after FCPS and her peers deemed her as "not smart."

Yep kids can be mean. And kids move at their own pace. Luckily, AAP is there to provide supports for kids to need it sooner than later. And luckily AP classes are available for kids who need it later.

Wow. That's what you got out of it? You read that as my kid with a 97th percentile CogAT, above grade level in everything, and with a perfect GBRS "needed it later," and the kids with lower scores all around who weren't even in the advanced math group or highest reading group "needed it sooner."

The bigger issue is that aside from the very top kids who are above and beyond, AAP draws a pretty arbitrary line between the above average kids who get the smart label and the above average kids who don't. It's unfortunate that one group of moderately advanced kids with moderately bright test scores will be mean to peers who are completely indistinguishable from them and may even be smarter than they are, simply because FCPS created this huge gulf between the two groups. And then the very top kids who are above and beyond don't get the supports they need because the program has been so watered down by the above average kids in AAP.

Exactly. I could have written this.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I have a similar story. My DD was told by some other girls on the bus that they were all smart and she wasn't, because they all got into AAP and she didn't. The sad part about all of this is that I know the other kids were parent referrals, and I didn't understand enough about AAP to refer my kid with a 130 CogAT composite (at a Title I school), meaning that my "not smart" DD had higher test scores than the "smart" girls who were bullying her. Then, she got rejected when we applied in 3rd, despite having a nearly perfect GBRS to go along with the 130 CogAT, as well as being above grade level in both reading and math.

Across the next 8 years, my kid got pass advanced on every SOL with perfect scores on most of them, a 98th percentile IAAT, straight As, a 5 on an AP test taken in 9th grade, and another 4 APs in 10th. She also flew through the math and completed AP Calc in 10th grade.

The AAP label is pretty meaningless, and kids will do fine even without it. My DD was pretty salty about the whole thing, though, and it took quite a bit of time for her to regain her confidence after FCPS and her peers deemed her as "not smart."

Yep kids can be mean. And kids move at their own pace. Luckily, AAP is there to provide supports for kids to need it sooner than later. And luckily AP classes are available for kids who need it later.

Wow. That's what you got out of it? You read that as my kid with a 97th percentile CogAT, above grade level in everything, and with a perfect GBRS "needed it later," and the kids with lower scores all around who weren't even in the advanced math group or highest reading group "needed it sooner."

The bigger issue is that aside from the very top kids who are above and beyond, AAP draws a pretty arbitrary line between the above average kids who get the smart label and the above average kids who don't. It's unfortunate that one group of moderately advanced kids with moderately bright test scores will be mean to peers who are completely indistinguishable from them and may even be smarter than they are, simply because FCPS created this huge gulf between the two groups. And then the very top kids who are above and beyond don't get the supports they need because the program has been so watered down by the above average kids in AAP.

Some of us are trying to tell you that the bolded is just not true at every school. Kids at our AAP center definitely don't think of the AAP classes as "the smart kids" and the not AAP classes as "the not smart kids." The fact that plenty of non-level IV kids push in for advanced math probably helps. Plus even though we are a center kids get principal placed in some grades so kids will move in and out of the AAP classes pretty fluidly. And the kids who are mean about AAP are kids who would find something arbitrary to be mean about regardless. That's a kid problem, and a parent problem, and a school culture problem. It's not a system-wide problem. I'm sorry it happened to your kid, and some other kids, but plenty of people know how not to place arbitrary "smart kid" labels around.

NP. I don't think anyone looking at the situation objectively could deny that FCPS contributes to the dynamic by maintaining a large, two-track system.

If only a small number of truly gifted kids were getting into AAP, then no one would bat an eye because the needs of those kids for a different environment would be obvious.

But with a large, two-track system, the incentives are created to push kids into AAP and then the "in-group" - whether kids or parents - is big enough to talk about their status. You can argue that some are modest or kinder than others, or that it takes on more significance in some pyramids than others, or that some kids would be bored out of their skulls absent AAP, but it's still FCPS that has created and perpetuated a fundamentally unhealthy and pedagogically suspect (despite the consultants they periodically retain to give them a gold star) dynamic.

+ a million
I have four kids and the older ones went through FCPS when there was still a GT program - a very small, very selective program for kids who tested *gifted* and needed curriculum to support that. No one cared at all. It was understood that these very few kids were in need of something different. ALL OF THE REST of the kids were educated together in the same classrooms, using flexible groupings. And by flexible groups, I don't mean four levels of ability in each classroom. One teacher would take group A Language Arts kids, the other teacher would take Group B, another teacher Group C, etc. For every core class, this would happen since the kids change classrooms for subjects anyway. It worked beautifully and no one was locked into any group. As they progressed, they simply joined the next group up.

Once they got rid of GT and instituted AAP, things started to go off the rails with competitive parents vying to get their kids in. It's beyond absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If only a small number of truly gifted kids were getting into AAP, then no one would bat an eye because the needs of those kids for a different environment would be obvious.

Parents would be demanding to know the criteria and do what they could to prep their kids to meet the criteria so their kid was included. Just look at the AAP forum and it's regular discussion on how to get your kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade.

FCPS would be better off if it had Advanced versions of each subject in ES and allowed kids to change classes so that they were grouped with students by ability level. Keep the groupings so that there is no more then a year gap in where kids are so that the Teacher could focus on the needs of that group of kids for the entire period. There are 4 main subjects, so there would be a minimum of 4 groups for each subject, allowing for an Advanced group in each subject matter and a remedial group for kids who are below grade level. Place Reading/Math specialists in the remedial classes so that the kids receive more focused attention.

We won't do this because it will look bad. We know that there is a high likelihood that the Advanced classes will be a majority Asian or White with some Black and Hispanic kids and that the remedial class is most likely to be Black and Hispanic kids from poor families with some kids with LDs that are struggling. The grade level group is likely to be majority white with some Asian, Black, and Hispanic kids. I would guess that this class would be the most balanced in terms of ethnicity/color.

DP. This is what I've been saying too. But what I don't understand is that if FCPS somehow thinks that will "look bad," what do they think is happening with AAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Local Level 4 Teacher here. My school has one AAP class per year and my team is strong with a ton of experience. It irritates me that kids can get a great education at their neighborhood school but can choose to go elsewhere cause of the label of going to the center. Going to a center does not mean your child is getting a more elite education. I looked into some VGA data and was surprised that many Local Level 4s outperformed in midwinter testing than the centers. Next year every child is getting the same basal instruction regardless of level. 5th grade AAP will be getting the 5th grade basal and 6th grade will be using 6th grade. I am all for AAP but the center program is a waste of resources.

I agree that centers are a waste of resources - as is the associated busing. FCPS talks a big game about "equity" but allowing certain kids (AAP) to choose between their base school or the center while GE kids have no such choice is the very definition of INequity. Boggles my mind that it's still going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, another boy said to DC that he is too bright for them and will move to an AAP class. Good riddance to this arrogance!

Tbh, that kid is more than likely on the spectrum and just has limited to no social EQ. He is probably expressing his very literal understanding of why he is going to another class without any ability to consider the impact of his words on others.
Many spectrum kids are academically high functioning, but that doesn’t mean they grasp socially appropriate norms. So honestly, your son is fortunate to have that skill because it will serve him well in life.

DP. Most kids in AAP aren't "on the spectrum." They're just ordinary kids who happened to do well on one test. And plenty of AAP kids say exactly what the PP described to their GE peers. Mine was told that "if she had just worked harder" she'd be able to join them in AAP. What a joke. Kids in general are stupid and insensitive at the age of 7 - and often beyond that. They say incredibly damaging things that are totally unnecessary.

AAP has created a huge division among FCPS students. It was fine and workable when it was just GT for the very few. It's now a ridiculously bloated program that could easily be accomplished by simply having flexible groupings for all.

Flexible groupings won’t work well in high farms/esol schools. And in case you haven’t noticed, that’s the trend for many FCPS schools.

Those schools would probably need fewer groups, which actually makes it easier. And yes, I have definitely noticed that trend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If only a small number of truly gifted kids were getting into AAP, then no one would bat an eye because the needs of those kids for a different environment would be obvious.

Parents would be demanding to know the criteria and do what they could to prep their kids to meet the criteria so their kid was included. Just look at the AAP forum and it's regular discussion on how to get your kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade.

FCPS would be better off if it had Advanced versions of each subject in ES and allowed kids to change classes so that they were grouped with students by ability level. Keep the groupings so that there is no more then a year gap in where kids are so that the Teacher could focus on the needs of that group of kids for the entire period. There are 4 main subjects, so there would be a minimum of 4 groups for each subject, allowing for an Advanced group in each subject matter and a remedial group for kids who are below grade level. Place Reading/Math specialists in the remedial classes so that the kids receive more focused attention.

We won't do this because it will look bad. We know that there is a high likelihood that the Advanced classes will be a majority Asian or White with some Black and Hispanic kids and that the remedial class is most likely to be Black and Hispanic kids from poor families with some kids with LDs that are struggling. The grade level group is likely to be majority white with some Asian, Black, and Hispanic kids. I would guess that this class would be the most balanced in terms of ethnicity/color.

DP. This is what I've been saying too. But what I don't understand is that if FCPS somehow thinks that will "look bad," what do they think is happening with AAP?

I think you know the answer. FCPS has created a system that is incredibly divisive but at the same time has various procedures designed to protect the system against discrimination claims. It’s a lawyer-vetted system that’s more about reducing liability than nurturing kids. They don’t want to allow for more flexible groupings because they think it would give too much discretion to school-based teachers and administrators.

[Anonymous]

My DC moved to an AAP center in 3rd grade, and most of their friends came from GenEd classes. Some APP kids were full of themselves and cliquey. DD did well academically, but socially it was not their crowd.

[Anonymous]

I have two kids in AAP. The older one spend the first semester in GE class before having cogAT test and then admitted into AAP. He was in 4th grade. He was identified as gifted at the previous school in a different state. Before he switched to AAP class, he made good friends with some very smart GE kids. I believe that He never thinks that GE kids are no smart. My younger one's admission experience is different. He got high score in NNAT and cogAT, he was in pool but got reject in the first round. He was not the only one. His best friend, who was in pool too, also got rejected. My younger one got in by appeal but his friend didn't. Because of the appeal, we missed the AAP tour. At the beginning of the 3rd grade, we saw who were in the AAP class. Our experience is that AAP kids are not necessarily the top students, GE class have some really smart kids. It's not always based on test , or IQ, or need. Du to the randomness, any smart kids could end up in either GE or AAP. This is just the beginning of their lives.

[Anonymous]

There’s all this drama and cross comparison while kids are in elementary. The AAP kids are awful. They put others down. They verbally tell the non-AAP kids that they are brighter.

[Anonymous]

Our AAP center experience has been amazing and absolutely life changing for our DC. My other DC isn’t in AAP and doesn’t need it. They are happy and there isn’t some kind of smart / dumb type of animosity in our house.

Inevitably, my guess is the SB will probably move to dismantle the center system as LLIV is finally up and running everywhere. And even more, my guess is that LLIV will probably be moved to the cluster model in most places due to the segregation like optics of separate classes which really aren’t any better than separate schools if we look at it through an equity lens.

Given all the issues present in many low SES/ middle SES elementary schools, the cluster model will likely result in poorer outcomes for those kids.

I’m just happy my DC will have received a top notch elementary/MS education before the AAP system is changed. Sorry some kids said some mean things though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our AAP center experience has been amazing and absolutely life changing for our DC. My other DC isn’t in AAP and doesn’t need it. They are happy and there isn’t some kind of smart / dumb type of animosity in our house.

Inevitably, my guess is the SB will probably move to dismantle the center system as LLIV is finally up and running everywhere. And even more, my guess is that LLIV will probably be moved to the cluster model in most places due to the segregation like optics of separate classes which really aren’t any better than separate schools if we look at it through an equity lens.

Given all the issues present in many low SES/ middle SES elementary schools, the cluster model will likely result in poorer outcomes for those kids.

I’m just happy my DC will have received a top notch elementary/MS education before the AAP system is changed. Sorry some kids said some mean things though.

Way to be smug and dismissive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our AAP center experience has been amazing and absolutely life changing for our DC. My other DC isn’t in AAP and doesn’t need it. They are happy and there isn’t some kind of smart / dumb type of animosity in our house.

Inevitably, my guess is the SB will probably move to dismantle the center system as LLIV is finally up and running everywhere. And even more, my guess is that LLIV will probably be moved to the cluster model in most places due to the segregation like optics of separate classes which really aren’t any better than separate schools if we look at it through an equity lens.

Given all the issues present in many low SES/ middle SES elementary schools, the cluster model will likely result in poorer outcomes for those kids.

I’m just happy my DC will have received a top notch elementary/MS education before the AAP system is changed. Sorry some kids said some mean things though.

Way to be smug and dismissive

DP. She said that OP will get what she wants, the end of center schools. But it won't be good for any students. At least OP, or a parent like her, will feel better though.