Millennial women are saying no thanks to parenthood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

What you may not be considering is that there are plenty of women who do not find motherhood + a career any more difficult than being a SAHM. I found hitting the ground running at work an escape. I did not breastfeed or pump.

I do have sympathy for women who want to SAHM and are now pressured to work and prioritize a career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

+100. This is also why there’s a lot to be said for dating intentionally for marriage in college/grad school and not writing off young marriage as something that only backwoods, flyover state rubes do. Men who are traditionally minded (in that they are on board with, or even actively prefer, a wife who wants to stay home to raise kids while they support the family financially) still exist, but they are off the market early.

I’m from a flyover city and find my friends who attended state colleges and married young have actually done better financially on average compared to friends I’ve met in DC. They also appear happier but that is difficult to judge. This is more from a financial perspective and ignoring other measures of success. It’s like these women knew to lock down a normal guy early on who would be a good provider and support a stable home. A lot of these men now own small businesses, continued in the family business etc.

I know a lot of people like this too. I think a major factor in this working is that they stayed in low COL areas where they could get married at 22 or 24, save up for a couple years and buy a SFH at 25 or 26, and then be in a position where the wives could become SAHMs by 27 or 28 when they had their first kid. It's all dependent on the idea that you live somewhere where housing is affordable and it's possible for a family of 4 or 5 to get by on one decent income. These are people who bought 4 bedroom houses in good school districts for 150k back in 2005. It's just a totally different financial situation than being in a place like DC.

Staying in my home town or near my family was not really a possibility for me (abusive, dysfunctional family) but I do sometimes wish we'd moved to a smaller more affordable city about 5 years before having a baby and built a life somewhere more reasonable. I just know women who were able to SAHM for a few years and still return to careers, without it being a financial burden, and who will be able to retire in their late 50s well after kids are done with college and house is paid off, and have a pretty comfortable life. Everything here is so hard, but our jobs are tied to this area and at this point we've been here 20 years, it's hard to leave.

I have several high school friends like this, too. I grew up LDS so many of them were married from 20-23 and they had all ~3 of them in their twenties. They bought their first home during or after the Great Recession and some of them traded up once, but all of them have been homeowners since their mid-twenties. A few have already sent a kid or two to college (we're ~40), while I have a toddler at home. I wouldn't trade places and give up my education or international adventures from my twenties, but I also see value in their way of life. They are now looking forward to being empty nesters in their forties and traveling and enjoying almost paid-off homes they bought a long time ago. Most of them will send their kids to BYU, which is a nicely ranked school and only costs $20k per year all in with no aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean his statement is bold (and true): Something like 1 in 5 American women ages 25 to 44 are one and done.

A lot of millenials realize they don't want to spend more than $2,500-$3,000 (including the home upsizing cost) a month on a kid and so far in my circle stopped at one.

Remains to be seen if they have another once the kid reaches 5.

The article states that one-and-done families have remained pretty constant over the years (going from 17% in 1990 to 19% in 2022). So the low birthrates are not resulting in more only children, as might be expected. The article notes:
-The number of 3+ families has dropped
-The number of no-kids couples has risen
-Marriage rates have dropped
-Homeownership rates have dropped

The article posits that the Great Recession put a lot of Millennials behind on the things you "are supposed to" (not a quote from the article, just quotes for the idea) line up before having kids: financial stability/student loan debt, job/career rather than a "gig," marriage, house. Some of the childlessness of Millennials may just be delay and we might see a jump in the birthrate among Millennials in their mid-30s who had been putting off children, but are now ready.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

I’m the pp who wrote all that and yes, this was my point. Exactly. Feminism fought for choice to have children, not have children and be respected intellectually, whatever. But it also fought for understanding and RESPECT of women’s bodies and giving birth. Expecting women to work while having a difficult pregnancy go back to work 6 weeks postpartum is the antithesis of feminism. Giving birth is feminine and powerful and amazing work. Millennial men think it’s boring and pathetic and gross or worse, a non-event. That is NOT feminism.

Hear hear! When I talk to my european friends, who grew up in Europe and have never lived in a world without generous maternity leave, free healthcare, and free daycare, it's like we're speaking a completely different language about having kids. Like the conversation just breaks down because the concept of having no paid maternity leave after giving birth, no reduced work schedule for the first 6 years, no free 12 hour a day daycare provided by state employees, is imposible for them to understand.

One thing that States does have going for it is, a dynamic job market so you can dip in and dip out to do childcare. This is unthinkable among my EU friend group, who believe that if they left their job they will never get hired again by anybody. so a lot of the generous leave and childcare options are to compensate for this extremely rigid EU job market. To mention nothing of the fact that a lot of my millenial EU friends are not having babies, either, bc they cannot afford housing on their measly salaries. So it's not al peaches and cream over there but it sure could be a lot better over here!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just got together with approximately 10 friends from all over the country and out of the 10 of us only 2 people had kids (that includes myself). So the one other person with a child has one kid and I have 3 kids. We range in age from 37-40. Kind of wild if you think about it.

I am the youngest in my friend group of 7 (39- 51). 4 of us have kids, but 2 had kids through IVF after turning 40. Of the remaining 3, 1 does not (and never wanted) to have kids. The other 2 are going through IVF and are both over 40.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

I’m the pp who wrote all that and yes, this was my point. Exactly. Feminism fought for choice to have children, not have children and be respected intellectually, whatever. But it also fought for understanding and RESPECT of women’s bodies and giving birth. Expecting women to work while having a difficult pregnancy go back to work 6 weeks postpartum is the antithesis of feminism. Giving birth is feminine and powerful and amazing work. Millennial men think it’s boring and pathetic and gross or worse, a non-event. That is NOT feminism.

Hear hear! When I talk to my european friends, who grew up in Europe and have never lived in a world without generous maternity leave, free healthcare, and free daycare, it's like we're speaking a completely different language about having kids. Like the conversation just breaks down because the concept of having no paid maternity leave after giving birth, no reduced work schedule for the first 6 years, no free 12 hour a day daycare provided by state employees, is imposible for them to understand.

One thing that States does have going for it is, a dynamic job market so you can dip in and dip out to do childcare. This is unthinkable among my EU friend group, who believe that if they left their job they will never get hired again by anybody. so a lot of the generous leave and childcare options are to compensate for this extremely rigid EU job market. To mention nothing of the fact that a lot of my millenial EU friends are not having babies, either, bc they cannot afford housing on their measly salaries. So it's not al peaches and cream over there but it sure could be a lot better over here!

This also makes me think of friends from Japan. Since Japan never had a feminist movement, the pressures on women are quite a bit worse than in the US. In traditional families, women are expected to care for their in-laws, and Japanese men are less likely than Western men to help out around the house and with kids. So, Japan has had a negative and declining birth rate for decades now - women have decided it's better to opt out of family life altogether rather than opt into a structure that they feel is oppressive, or at least this is what I heard from Japanese friends when I lived and worked there.

[Anonymous]

Inflation…Milk cost $7.50. Need to feed kids….inflation.

[Anonymous]

Of my 10 friends 7 have kids ..of those 3 oo the 7 have onlies and the remaining 3 of 10 friend dont have (2 definitely don't want) kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

Well military men tend to marry women that will put their own career second and will want kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Of my 10 friends 7 have kids ..of those 3 oo the 7 have onlies and the remaining 3 of 10 friend dont have (2 definitely don't want) kids.

All 41-44

[Anonymous]

Millennials think kids aren't worth having.

Millennials who don't think are having kids because they can't prevent it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Inflation…Milk cost $7.50. Need to feed kids….inflation.

I had a baby in December 2021 and my second in May 2023. A can of (generic) formula has increased from $39.99 to $49.99 in 22 months. I am exclusively pumping for as long as I can this time around, to avoid the direct cost (my time and headache around it be damned, I suppose).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We'll see what they think of their decision in 40 years when they end up in a nursing home with no kids or family to visit.

Plenty of people in nursing homes do have kids- that don’t ever visit. Having a kids means nothing as far is eldercare is concerned

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The internet and social media have amplified voices whining about how hard everything is, parenthood included. Young people don’t want to work, read, cook, clean, exercise, rear children. Everything’s too hard. Wah.

I mean, I dislike social media too, but you can’t expect people not to use it. And the truth is the parenting does suck especially the way we have a configure now.

Parents should include the kid in their lives, and lives with the family, not make the kid their whole life. It’s not working for anyone.

We’re going to see increasing pressure in the next couple of decades for women to stay at home and have kids. The United States is headed into a reactionary period. Our daughters may not have a choice.

More people should post their kids thrown tantrums. It would help with decision making.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's really about the expectations for parenting. You can't have kids and keep living your pre-kids life without being branded a bad parent. As soon as you have kids, your life becomes kid-centric with playgroups, music classes, sports practices, and on and on. If you aren't interested in this shift, then you don't have kids. In prior generations, people just ignored their kids and went on with their adult lives.

I tried to…it’s not working for me. Off to the playground I go.