Millennial women are saying no thanks to parenthood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

I’m the pp who wrote all that and yes, this was my point. Exactly. Feminism fought for choice to have children, not have children and be respected intellectually, whatever. But it also fought for understanding and RESPECT of women’s bodies and giving birth. Expecting women to work while having a difficult pregnancy go back to work 6 weeks postpartum is the antithesis of feminism. Giving birth is feminine and powerful and amazing work. Millennial men think it’s boring and pathetic and gross or worse, a non-event. That is NOT feminism.

Hear hear! When I talk to my european friends, who grew up in Europe and have never lived in a world without generous maternity leave, free healthcare, and free daycare, it's like we're speaking a completely different language about having kids. Like the conversation just breaks down because the concept of having no paid maternity leave after giving birth, no reduced work schedule for the first 6 years, no free 12 hour a day daycare provided by state employees, is imposible for them to understand.

One thing that States does have going for it is, a dynamic job market so you can dip in and dip out to do childcare. This is unthinkable among my EU friend group, who believe that if they left their job they will never get hired again by anybody. so a lot of the generous leave and childcare options are to compensate for this extremely rigid EU job market. To mention nothing of the fact that a lot of my millenial EU friends are not having babies, either, bc they cannot afford housing on their measly salaries. So it's not al peaches and cream over there but it sure could be a lot better over here!

This is why we don’t have paid parental leave. We also have much higher salaries. The average married woman can absolutely stay home for a year per kid if that’s what she wants to do. Paid parental leave isn’t a necessity here.

I actually think the situation in Europe is worse. From my friendships with Europeans I get the impression that working is mandatory whereas it’s not with my peers here in the US. My European friends also are forced to use daycare facilities, can’t outsource like we do etc. I grew up in a flyover city and most of my childhood friends have very average husbands and have stayed home for decades now.

Outside of some urban areas with highly educated dual income couples, the average American woman who wants a year of parental leave wants to stay home much longer than that. There are cultural and structural reasons we don’t have long paid leaves from the government. Many women have pink collar jobs that easily allow them to reenter the workforce.

The Soviet Union provided one year maternity leaves to moms. Would I rather have a career and live in the Soviet Union? No. Do I think the Soviet Union provided maternity leave because they loved women and wanted moms to have an easy life? No.

[Anonymous]

God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:- Women are staying single for longer because they have higher standards for a partner/they don't need to marry the first person who asks just so they'll have roofs over their heads
- Women still do the bulk of parenting and domestic chores whether or not they work, and it's harder to have even a middle class lifestyle with only one income so most women have no choice but to work, and they don't want to run themselves ragged doing everything
- Higher parenting expectations like a PP mentioned - you can't just send your kids out to play, they have to be in a zillion enrichment activities

I think this is the exact right answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Also, the expectation not only that you be sexually available; but that you give an Oscar winning performance. Every time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's really about the expectations for parenting. You can't have kids and keep living your pre-kids life without being branded a bad parent. As soon as you have kids, your life becomes kid-centric with playgroups, music classes, sports practices, and on and on. If you aren't interested in this shift, then you don't have kids. In prior generations, people just ignored their kids and went on with their adult lives.

And those kids ended up being far more capable, independent adults. What Parenting has become isn’t good for parents or kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting WAPO article -
"Millennials aren't having kids"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/11/03/millennials-only-children/
I love seeing the data on this. It really follows closely what I see in my personal life among my friends. What do you think are the reasons? I don't think it will turn around, millennial are rapidly approaching 40 or are already there.

It is very obvious to me ( Gen x) Women are expected to earn and make a good living AND also be the perfect homemaker/wife/mom. Until men step up women are smart not to fall into the trap.

And stay thin and have enthusiastic sex a min of 4x a week.

That has been the expectation of women/wives/mistresses since time immemorial. That's nothing new.

Expectation for mistresses mostly. They have a role on society and this is it. I do believe moms are expected to let themselves go a bit. It’s a non-verbal expectation that after kids, you will not be as hot. We all know this, as much has you try to fight it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Also, the expectation not only that you be sexually available; but that you give an Oscar winning performance. Every time.

Or you can just turn a blind eye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Truth.

[Anonymous]

I see it. A lot of ours friends from college are not having kids, they don't want them. It's no a cost issue - we went to Ivy before it was need blind and lots come from affluent families. I think it's finally acceptable for women not to want to have kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

What you may not be considering is that there are plenty of women who do not find motherhood + a career any more difficult than being a SAHM. I found hitting the ground running at work an escape. I did not breastfeed or pump.

I do have sympathy for women who want to SAHM and are now pressured to work and prioritize a career.

Ok?

Isn't the whole point of this thread that more women are concluding that career+kids is kind of a BS proposition? Good for you that it worked out but, the point is that it doesn't work that way for a lot of us. And thus more women are choosing to not even try.

You likely have factors in your life that make it work for you. Maybe higher income so you can afford more support, maybe family support, maybe very good fortune with regards to mental and physical health, maybe a combination.

I found returning to work to be terrible and I say that as someone who values my career and earning my own money. The year my baby was born was the most brutal mental health challenge I've ever had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Im personally over feminism. There is actually a “soft life” movement happening and I find it refreshing. Its too much running around to have two working parents and raise kids. Your child literally needs to have a business now to be accepted into college so one parent needs to focus on the majority of child rearing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Im personally over feminism. There is actually a “soft life” movement happening and I find it refreshing. Its too much running around to have two working parents and raise kids. Your child literally needs to have a business now to be accepted into college so one parent needs to focus on the majority of child rearing

The biggest risk of going backward, IMO, is that the nonearning spouse (often women) are very vulnerable if the marriage falls apart, or even within some marriages if the breadwinner controls the purse strings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

What you may not be considering is that there are plenty of women who do not find motherhood + a career any more difficult than being a SAHM. I found hitting the ground running at work an escape. I did not breastfeed or pump.

I do have sympathy for women who want to SAHM and are now pressured to work and prioritize a career.

Ok?

Isn't the whole point of this thread that more women are concluding that career+kids is kind of a BS proposition? Good for you that it worked out but, the point is that it doesn't work that way for a lot of us. And thus more women are choosing to not even try.

You likely have factors in your life that make it work for you. Maybe higher income so you can afford more support, maybe family support, maybe very good fortune with regards to mental and physical health, maybe a combination.

I found returning to work to be terrible and I say that as someone who values my career and earning my own money. The year my baby was born was the most brutal mental health challenge I've ever had.

+1 its not easier to be a mom and work. You either have lots of help or you lying. Kids are added stress and you sound like you are using work to escape them. AND that is ok! But don’t make it seem like something easy for the “average” mom.

[Anonymous]

Who in their right mind would bring a child into this world with the likes of Mike Johnson and the pedo loving Putin party in charge ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, this this this:

The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Im personally over feminism. There is actually a “soft life” movement happening and I find it refreshing. Its too much running around to have two working parents and raise kids. Your child literally needs to have a business now to be accepted into college so one parent needs to focus on the majority of child rearing

The biggest risk of going backward, IMO, is that the nonearning spouse (often women) are very vulnerable if the marriage falls apart, or even within some marriages if the breadwinner controls the purse strings.

That’s when the courts step in. Some women are making out huge in these divorce settlements. Wouldn’t be an issue if I divorce. My husband owes me.