If your dc did not take pre-calc..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's a HUGE difference in: not taking high school Pre-calc, and not taking Calculus.

For college admission, Op's question was Pre-Calc. Posters, stop making this your opportunity to debate other Advanced Math.

+1 Pre-calc is a basic college prep class.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Yes, I agree that if they are going into STEM, some aspects of Business (though marketing and the like at a non-selective school isn't going to build on calc) or many Social Sciences (Econ, Psych, Sociology all have quant focus in their research) or if they are going to a selective school. But for a general math credit, they can take statistics or something like that and usually schools have options for pass/fail in a non-major math class. Once you step outside of the selective college realm, there's a lot more options. I would still encourage a kid to take Pre-Calc (Calc actually too!), but she's not doomed if she doesn't.

WVU is not selective and requires Calc for Marketing majors: http://catalog.wvu.edu/undergraduate/collegeofbusinessandeconomics/marketing/#majortext

The minimum is Applied Calculus, which does not have Precalculus as a prereq. You can get through it without trigonometry and the other "non real-world" parts of math that don't relate at all to marketing.

Applied Calc is not hard but you are kidding yourself if you think a kid not prepared for Pre-Calc in high school is going to do well in college Applied Calc where there is no hand holding, extra credit, etc.

If you get a C- in Applied Calculus you still get your bachelor's degree in Marketing. It's a terminal math class for that degree so as long as you can drag your body over the finish line you're fine.

But that C- rules out a hood law school, a hood MBA program, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

+ a million
Best post yet. This is exactly how we felt - all of our kids were/are very strong in the humanities, but not in math. I decided there was zero need for them to be stressed out over a class (calculus) that would have nothing to do with their future majors or careers. Instead, they took all the classes that interested them and did well in those - AP humanities and languages. No regrets whatsoever. If a student isn't planning on a STEM major, there is absolutely no need to take calculus (unless they enjoy it, of course).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

+ a million
Best post yet. This is exactly how we felt - all of our kids were/are very strong in the humanities, but not in math. I decided there was zero need for them to be stressed out over a class (calculus) that would have nothing to do with their future majors or careers. Instead, they took all the classes that interested them and did well in those - AP humanities and languages. No regrets whatsoever. If a student isn't planning on a STEM major, there is absolutely no need to take calculus (unless they enjoy it, of course).

Wrong thread. Check the title.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

+ a million
Best post yet. This is exactly how we felt - all of our kids were/are very strong in the humanities, but not in math. I decided there was zero need for them to be stressed out over a class (calculus) that would have nothing to do with their future majors or careers. Instead, they took all the classes that interested them and did well in those - AP humanities and languages. No regrets whatsoever. If a student isn't planning on a STEM major, there is absolutely no need to take calculus (unless they enjoy it, of course).

Wrong thread. Check the title.

Or pre-calc. Neither are necessary.
-PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

Wrong

[Anonymous]

Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

What was their highest math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

What was their highest math?

Arizona has the SALT program for learning disabilities. Was in place when I was a grad student decades ago, it’s why I’ve seen more remedial math students. I stand by what I said up thread, the material in pre-calc is an essential high school skill set, students who don’t have it really struggle to pick it up later. Getting more out of calculus on a second pass is a very different situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

Thank you, helpful info.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

Thank you, helpful info.

U of Arizona has over 87% acceptance rate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

Thank you, helpful info.

Beware this doesn’t mean the kid got in without a higher math. Kids need to take a rigorous math schedule to be successful in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

What was their highest math?

Their highest math was Algebra II.

I do think it influenced admissions - my kid would have loved to attend Skidmore or even UMd - but I could not get my daughter to take a higher math. She was brilliant in languages, English and literature - but had a block with math.

I think other schools were admissions are possible include most of the SUNY schools, maybe Florida State, U of Iowa, and Univ of Kansas, to name a few. I personally think a student with a varied profile like this can get more out of a big research university than a small college because at a big university, they can excel in their strengths while they may end up at a small lac or regional school that is not as competitive in their area of strength because they are limited by their math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

What was their highest math?

Arizona has the SALT program for learning disabilities. Was in place when I was a grad student decades ago, it’s why I’ve seen more remedial math students. I stand by what I said up thread, the material in pre-calc is an essential high school skill set, students who don’t have it really struggle to pick it up later. Getting more out of calculus on a second pass is a very different situation.

My daughter was not in SALT and did not have an ld. (I tested. It was more of a mental block with math.) I agree that precalc is important but my kid transferred into MCPS from a private school, was put in the wrong math (too high a level) because the school wouldn’t arrange testing, barely passed, then was told she couldn’t take a prior math level because that was policy - it was a disaster and, despite tutors, kid couldn’t catch up. She graduated with just Algebra II and easy math transfer credits. She had APs in other subjects and good overall grades and testing. Yes, UofAZ has a high admissions rate - but it doesn’t take away that it’s a good flagship university with plenty of opportunities. Fwiw, kiddo was given a scholarship to attend Indiana.

My post is not a defense of not taking precalc. We all know that the best route is to take all APs and get all As and be captain of three teams. But that’s not everyone’s reality. I am merely presenting my kid’s admissions results for parents in similar situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without precalc, my kid was accepted at Indiana and Arizona - not at MD and not at Skidmore. The rest of the application was strong and the student was hooked.

Thank you, helpful info.

Beware this doesn’t mean the kid got in without a higher math. Kids need to take a rigorous math schedule to be successful in college.

What are you trying to say?
What is "a higher math"?