If your dc did not take pre-calc..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

It's been drummed in by other parents in the gossip chain. Colleges, meanwhile, are moving toward preferring stats, because (a) it's more useful for non-STEM, and (b) they see that students come in with calculus credit but performing poorly in next level calculus.

Someone who applied nine years ago would have little insight to the world of test optional applications, it might as well have been decades ago. And if a college consultant is telling you that a kid can get in a highly selective school without precalc in high school, they are incompetent.

Actually it has been drummed into me both by a dear friend who attended Harvard and a consultant who attended Brown. I think they are on to something...

Is this joke response? This folks know no more than any other parent responding here and likely less if they don’t have a kid who applied to college in the past two years.

It is not a joke. I think you're a bone head. What they DO know is what the tippy top colleges expect from their incoming students. They know this stuff first hand.

Alumni from decades ago don’t know current admissions processes first hand. I don’t know why you would think that.

You assume they graduated decades ago and you also assume they have nothing to do with current applicants. If you try reading what I wrote again, you'll see that at least one of the people I mention is a consultant. That is a college consultant. The other did not graduate decades ago, but in the last 5 yrs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Was the rice/candy comment a joke? No child - even a recruited athlete or major donor- would be admitted without preclaculus. Our counselor from a dc private said not having AP calculus on the transcript essentially shuts out top 50 schools. Not having calculus shuts out top 75 schools. If your kid doesn’t have precalc and it’s without some sort of explanation I would be aiming for like schools in the 100s.

DC with precalc and AP Stat got into 3 top 50s — so no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the rice/candy comment a joke? No child - even a recruited athlete or major donor- would be admitted without preclaculus. Our counselor from a dc private said not having AP calculus on the transcript essentially shuts out top 50 schools. Not having calculus shuts out top 75 schools. If your kid doesn’t have precalc and it’s without some sort of explanation I would be aiming for like schools in the 100s.

DC with precalc and AP Stat got into 3 top 50s — so no.

Your kid must be very strong otherwise. I’ve been repeatedly told calc is a must for the top schools.

[Anonymous]

Why? Most of them are going to have to retake calculus in college anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there a specific math requirement?

Applicants to Harvard should excel in a challenging high school math sequence corresponding to their educational interests and aspirations. We recommend that applicants take four years of math courses in high school. Ideally, these math courses will focus on conceptual understanding, promote higher-order thinking, and encourage students to use mathematical reasoning to critically examine the world. Examples include rigorous and relevant courses in computer science, statistics and its subfields, mathematical modeling, calculus, and other advanced math subjects.

Students’ math records are viewed holistically, and no specific course is required. Specifically, calculus is not a requirement for admission to Harvard. We understand that applicants do not have the same opportunities and course offerings in their high schools. Moreover, many programs of study at Harvard do not require knowledge of calculus. We encourage applicants to take the courses that are available to them and aligned with their interests and goals.

Students intending to study engineering, computer science, physics, mathematics, statistics or other fields where calculus is needed may benefit from taking calculus in high school. However, students at Harvard can still pursue such fields by starting with one of our introductory calculus classes that has no high school calculus prerequisite. On balance, we encourage all students to master foundational mathematical material instead of rushing through any of the more advanced courses.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/apply/application-requirements#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20calculus%20is%20not%20a,not%20require%20knowledge%20of%20calculus.

Good for Harvard. They are absolutely right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

It's been drummed in by other parents in the gossip chain. Colleges, meanwhile, are moving toward preferring stats, because (a) it's more useful for non-STEM, and (b) they see that students come in with calculus credit but performing poorly in next level calculus.

Actually it has been drummed into me both by a dear friend who attended Harvard and a consultant who attended Brown. I think they are on to something...

Is this joke response? This folks know no more than any other parent responding here and likely less if they don’t have a kid who applied to college in the past two years.

It is not a joke. I think you're a bone head. What they DO know is what the tippy top colleges expect from their incoming students. They know this stuff first hand.

OMG, it's the "tippy top" poster.
DP

If you are happy with Community College for your kids then who am I to disavow you. Carry on. Be happy.

[Anonymous]

Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the rice/candy comment a joke? No child - even a recruited athlete or major donor- would be admitted without preclaculus. Our counselor from a dc private said not having AP calculus on the transcript essentially shuts out top 50 schools. Not having calculus shuts out top 75 schools. If your kid doesn’t have precalc and it’s without some sort of explanation I would be aiming for like schools in the 100s.

Absolutely this.

Seriously? Taking pre-cal as a senior shuts out top 75? Does anyone have a recent admissions example disputing this? [/quote

My daughter's two bffs are freshmen at UNC (in-state). One took pre-calc as a senior. The other took pre-calc as a junior and then AP stats as a senior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Was the rice/candy comment a joke? No child - even a recruited athlete or major donor- would be admitted without preclaculus. Our counselor from a dc private said not having AP calculus on the transcript essentially shuts out top 50 schools. Not having calculus shuts out top 75 schools. If your kid doesn’t have precalc and it’s without some sort of explanation I would be aiming for like schools in the 100s.

I don’t know about Rice and Vandy, but the comments about top 50 and top 75 schools are just false. My DC had neither precalc or calculus (took stats Senior year) and got into multiples of both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the rice/candy comment a joke? No child - even a recruited athlete or major donor- would be admitted without preclaculus. Our counselor from a dc private said not having AP calculus on the transcript essentially shuts out top 50 schools. Not having calculus shuts out top 75 schools. If your kid doesn’t have precalc and it’s without some sort of explanation I would be aiming for like schools in the 100s.

DC with precalc and AP Stat got into 3 top 50s — so no.

Your kid must be very strong otherwise. I’ve been repeatedly told calc is a must for the top schools.

DP. It’s not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

You must be new around here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, not sure why people don’t name schools. No one can identify your kid from these posts and frankly I tend to think people are making stuff up when they won’t name the school.

Precalc might be sufficient for a recruited athlete, an institutional priority (such as first Gen or lower income) or as the Harvard language suggests, if it’s the most difficult math offered at a school. Otherwise, the most selective schools expect to see their applicants taking the most rigorous classes offered in core subjects.

Because we know that, no matter what the rank on USNWR or other list, the debate will degenerate into a discussion of how *those* schools are somehow not really “selective” and don’t count. My DC was accepted into multiple schools in the 50 through 70’s on the USNWR list with no precalc (much less calc or AP calc). I’m sorry if this fact upsets you.

It doesn’t upset me, I just think it’s weird you are unwilling to identify the schools.

I can see why it might be upsetting. I’m willing to concede that, all other things being equal, having taken AP Calc or whatever, might help a student obtain admission at a school that only admits 5% of the students that apply. The problem is, it only probably only takes the odds from, what, 5% to 10% or so? As demonstrated by the Harvard explanation, there are many, many other factors that come into play, even at the most selective schools. So the vast majority of students who took AP calc are still not going to get into a top 20 school. After that, unless you’re applying to competitive STEM programs, it becomes quickly and progressively less relevant as you go down the list. A college is mostly judged on test scores and gpas of the students attending, so that’s what the schools that are higher on the list care about. A kid (like mine) with a high test score (calculus isn’t on the test) and gpa will not only be admitted to schools above 30 or so, they’ll get substantial merit aid at anything over 50. Which is likely to be pretty much the same result as the AP calculus kids. Now folks will chime in with “my kid loves math and would have taken AP calc anyway, just for fun!” That’s fine! However, taking AP calc would have made my DC’s HS career immeasurably more stressful, and I’d be annoyed if I had pushed him to go through that and then found out it didn’t matter. In fact, I’ve seen comments from quite a few folks here after acceptance season is over who say, after seeing their kid’s results, that they (and their DC) regret not backing off and enjoying their HS career more, since it didn’t seem to make much difference in the end. YMMV.

50 to 80 would include STEM heavy schools like MD, VaTech, Clemson and Worcester Poly. This is why identifying the specific schools your kid got into would be helpful for readers of this thread who have kids who less advanced math, like op. Year of application is also relevant, as much has changed test optional world.

Calculus is required for graduation at the private high school my now college freshman attended, so this entire discussion never occurred in our household. I will say that it was heavily emphasized by the college counselors that maximum rigor in math and science was important for college admissions to the more selective schools, particularly for kids interested in business, or stem, which covers most kids these days. Nothing I saw in the results from last year’s college admissions contradicts that, the kids with the most rigor got the best results. Even moving down the list, rigor continued to be a very good predicator of who was admitted to T30 to 50, versus 50 plus.

In today’s admissions world, expectations vary depending on background. Schools are going to have different expectations for students with privileged backgrounds than those coming from under resourced schools, just as they have an entirely different set of expectations for athletic recruits.