If your dc did not take pre-calc..

[Anonymous]

My kid took math through pre-calc but got more value out of stats. She's in a biological science major at a LAC and the math requirement is two statistics classes. Calculus is an option but not required.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Yes, I agree that if they are going into STEM, some aspects of Business (though marketing and the like at a non-selective school isn't going to build on calc) or many Social Sciences (Econ, Psych, Sociology all have quant focus in their research) or if they are going to a selective school. But for a general math credit, they can take statistics or something like that and usually schools have options for pass/fail in a non-major math class. Once you step outside of the selective college realm, there's a lot more options. I would still encourage a kid to take Pre-Calc (Calc actually too!), but she's not doomed if she doesn't.

WVU is not selective and requires Calc for Marketing majors: http://catalog.wvu.edu/undergraduate/collegeofbusinessandeconomics/marketing/#majortext

The minimum is Applied Calculus, which does not have Precalculus as a prereq. You can get through it without trigonometry and the other "non real-world" parts of math that don't relate at all to marketing.

Applied Calc is not hard but you are kidding yourself if you think a kid not prepared for Pre-Calc in high school is going to do well in college Applied Calc where there is no hand holding, extra credit, etc.

If you get a C- in Applied Calculus you still get your bachelor's degree in Marketing. It's a terminal math class for that degree so as long as you can drag your body over the finish line you're fine.

Correct. If a student is capable of a C- in college applied calc, they should be able to take high school pre-calc.

But there's no need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Blanket statements aren't useful. Unless maybe you mean, no pre-calc sets up STEM majors for problems.

DC didnt take pre-calc. Got into the college DC wanted (a selective LAC). Not a STEM or business major. Never needed a "general college level math course" because open curriculum meant econ qualified as a "quantitative" course to meet requirements. So it's not a universal truth that all students including humanities and art etc are going to tank in college if they don't do pre-calc in HS. Every college is different, every department is different. Please avoid the scare statements making parents here think their kid will crash and burn if there's no pre-calc in HS. That depends on a lot of factors.

My kid wants to go to Rice or Vandy. In fact those are the only two school they are applying to (I know, I know, they should apply to more).

I am hoping the lack of pre-calc is not going to be a problem.

It might be an issue, but it depends on what else the student has to offer. These schools want a student to take the most challenging curriculum offered at the high school. Is everything else APs? I think for those two schools, not have AP Calc would be an issue (let alone not have Pre-Calc).

You say you know this, but your kid should absolutely expand their search.

[Anonymous]

ohhh Op, for those schools, it's going to be a huge problem. Not getting in. No chance. imho

I think the chosen dream schools are way-off-base. Take math senior year, no doubt but you need to drive the issue of looking for several safeties where the student would be happy. That time is now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Yes, I agree that if they are going into STEM, some aspects of Business (though marketing and the like at a non-selective school isn't going to build on calc) or many Social Sciences (Econ, Psych, Sociology all have quant focus in their research) or if they are going to a selective school. But for a general math credit, they can take statistics or something like that and usually schools have options for pass/fail in a non-major math class. Once you step outside of the selective college realm, there's a lot more options. I would still encourage a kid to take Pre-Calc (Calc actually too!), but she's not doomed if she doesn't.

WVU is not selective and requires Calc for Marketing majors: http://catalog.wvu.edu/undergraduate/collegeofbusinessandeconomics/marketing/#majortext

The minimum is Applied Calculus, which does not have Precalculus as a prereq. You can get through it without trigonometry and the other "non real-world" parts of math that don't relate at all to marketing.

Applied Calc is not hard but you are kidding yourself if you think a kid not prepared for Pre-Calc in high school is going to do well in college Applied Calc where there is no hand holding, extra credit, etc.

If you get a C- in Applied Calculus you still get your bachelor's degree in Marketing. It's a terminal math class for that degree so as long as you can drag your body over the finish line you're fine.

Correct. If a student is capable of a C- in college applied calc, they should be able to take high school pre-calc.

But there's no need.

Actually they would probably do better in college. Maybe that C- ends up being a B. That matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Blanket statements aren't useful. Unless maybe you mean, no pre-calc sets up STEM majors for problems.

DC didnt take pre-calc. Got into the college DC wanted (a selective LAC). Not a STEM or business major. Never needed a "general college level math course" because open curriculum meant econ qualified as a "quantitative" course to meet requirements. So it's not a universal truth that all students including humanities and art etc are going to tank in college if they don't do pre-calc in HS. Every college is different, every department is different. Please avoid the scare statements making parents here think their kid will crash and burn if there's no pre-calc in HS. That depends on a lot of factors.

My kid wants to go to Rice or Vandy. In fact those are the only two school they are applying to (I know, I know, they should apply to more).

I am hoping the lack of pre-calc is not going to be a problem.

25th %ile Math SAT is 770 and 760, respectively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please share if you or they regret their decision.

How did it work out as far as college admissions. Did it end up being a factor?

I skipped it do to moving schools and really regretted it. Calc was easy, but everything fell apart in Calc 2. I managed to do ok, but went from thinking I would major in math to picking colleges where I wouldn't have to take it again

[Anonymous]

Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

[Anonymous]

The only kid I know recently who didn't take Math in 12th is a type 1 diabetic with a severely reduced life expectancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more important question is will the student be prepared for college without pre-calc. Any stem or business field is going to build upon calc, so entering college without having pre-calc would be detrimental. Even a humanities or art student will need to take a general college level math course. The bottom line is not taking pre-calc in high school is setting up for math failure in college.

Blanket statements aren't useful. Unless maybe you mean, no pre-calc sets up STEM majors for problems.

DC didnt take pre-calc. Got into the college DC wanted (a selective LAC). Not a STEM or business major. Never needed a "general college level math course" because open curriculum meant econ qualified as a "quantitative" course to meet requirements. So it's not a universal truth that all students including humanities and art etc are going to tank in college if they don't do pre-calc in HS. Every college is different, every department is different. Please avoid the scare statements making parents here think their kid will crash and burn if there's no pre-calc in HS. That depends on a lot of factors.

My kid wants to go to Rice or Vandy. In fact those are the only two school they are applying to (I know, I know, they should apply to more).


I have kids at both Vanderbilt and Rice. Both got in ED. The Vanderbilt kid did Calculus BC and he has a soft major. The Rice kid did Multivariable Calculus and he has a STEM major. I'm pretty sure that the likelihood of them getting into those schools without having done calculus is zero.

At Vanderbilt, you might be able to get in without pre-cal if you're a football or basketball recruit or perhaps the Blair School of Music, which is very good. At Rice, there is no chance of admittance without calculus.

I am hoping the lack of pre-calc is not going to be a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

It's important for parents to realize the content of courses has changed with this drum beat. The goal is now get college ready students through calc by graduation, but that means some of the difficult topics that once were introduced in an algebra 1 have been moved to later classes because the algebra 1 students are now much younger. E.g. when I took algebra in 9th grade (the horror) we learned exponential functions and logarithms, including the properties of changing bases, etc. My kids saw the graph of an exponential function in algebra 1 and learned about exponential growth. They saw the graph of the logarithm in algebra II, they learned about the properties of those functions and how to manipulate them symbolically for the first time in pre-calc. At this point pre-calc is necessary for a quality high school education, and is about the same as finishing at algebra 2 or trig a generation ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

It's important for parents to realize the content of courses has changed with this drum beat. The goal is now get college ready students through calc by graduation, but that means some of the difficult topics that once were introduced in an algebra 1 have been moved to later classes because the algebra 1 students are now much younger. E.g. when I took algebra in 9th grade (the horror) we learned exponential functions and logarithms, including the properties of changing bases, etc. My kids saw the graph of an exponential function in algebra 1 and learned about exponential growth. They saw the graph of the logarithm in algebra II, they learned about the properties of those functions and how to manipulate them symbolically for the first time in pre-calc. At this point pre-calc is necessary for a quality high school education, and is about the same as finishing at algebra 2 or trig a generation ago.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only kid I know recently who didn't take Math in 12th is a type 1 diabetic with a severely reduced life expectancy.

OP my kids all took AP Stats senior year and got into top 25 universities (not all the same one). The all went in undecided and one then transferred into the business school second semester freshman year. Two others are doing non STEM majors. If you have a kid who is a strong student, strong writing and good application it is just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look in the mid-late 80s I left HS with Algebra 2. That was considered a monumental fail at the time. I went to a Russell Group UK university and have 2 post-graduate degrees I picked up thereafter.

But my kids are now in public HS and the idea that AP Calc AB is the baseline for HS graduates has been drummed into us parents, and it's kind of difficult for me to see past that.

It's been drummed in by other parents in the gossip chain. Colleges, meanwhile, are moving toward preferring stats, because (a) it's more useful for non-STEM, and (b) they see that students come in with calculus credit but performing poorly in next level calculus.

[Anonymous]

Definitely regret. They need it in college for any decent major and it’s been a struggle for DC