WashPost: College is remade as tech majors surge and humanities dwindle

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The collapse in humanities majors is not just because of the popularity of tech majors in the modern economy. Humanities are becoming a joke on many campuses. People talking about their humanities degrees from 30 years go keep forgetting it's not 1993 any more. There's been a revolution in how the humanities are taught and the academic experience is, let's put it as politely as possible, not as rigorous or insightful as it once was. Because of the courses taught by the current generation of college professors, fewer students are drawn to the humanities.

I do think higher education is going to go through a massive restructuring in the next few decades as people reevaluate their relationship with colleges and studying, especially in the age of AI in conjunction with the new ideological attitudes that have come to dominate higher education, and, of course costs.

Agree. I have no issue with humanities students who study hard and excel in their fields. But on average their study habits and work ethic are far worse than engineering students. Too many humanities students party too much and have too many distractions during 4 years of college. The bad news is that employers know it. Even those jobs that don’t require specialized technical knowledge, they know the difference between the work ethic of an engineering student v. a humanities student, unless the humanities student is from a top school with a top GPA.

I work with scientists, and by and large they are a bunch of entitled whiners. Their work ethic only extends to what strokes their ego.

DP..

Engineering majors get paid a lot more with an undergrad than most humanities majors, and there's a reason for that.

Engineering salaries are flat. Period. They usually do not go on to an advanced degree and don’t break $200k over time.

I’m a female STEM BS/MS that works with a ton of engineers. I make $180k/yr 28 years in my career.

I’m married to a Humanities major from a top 10 university. He went into software consulting started @$39k and was making $300k when he went independent 5 years later and makes around $550k. Just a BA.

I’m literally the only STEM worker in my entire wealthy neighborhood filled with lawyers and lobbyists and a few TV new/policy commentators.

My dear, you understand that lawyers need an advanced degree, right? While engineering majors don't to make that six figures.

Also, as a STEM major, you really ought to understand statistics vs anecdata.

Also, as a somewhat intelligent person, you should also understand that a humanities major at a T10 can use connections and networks to get the high paying jobs. The vast majority of humanities majors did not/do not go to a T10, and they don't make six figures 10 years out without a graduate degree, whereas engineering majors do, without a graduate degree. There goes that pesky statistics again.

Can you not read? I said most engineers do not go for a graduate degree and have stable - but not astronomical salaries. They stay at that $200k range.

Liberal arts/humanities from a great school—well-read, excellent writers, consolidate many facts do go onto to advanced degrees/professional degrees and these are the people with the 7-figure salaries in my neighborhood. The engineers and scientists like me are Feds and govt contractors making just around $200k still after 25 years.

And I have two kids that excel in BOTH in STEM and history/English/Modern languages. 5s on all AP exams and straight AS. Some of us can do both just as well—left AND right brained with high EQ.

But here is the problem: For every liberal arts graduate making seven-digit income, there are a hundred if not a thousand liberal arts graduates sitting in their mommy’s basement tweeting how unfair the society is.

There really aren’t. College grads land in jobs, it isn’t always obvious why a history major is doing UI/UX but it works out. Anyway you can say the same for engineers/CS some leverage it into management, but most are cubicle drones doing repetitive office work, with no self-actualiztion.

The key to anyone’s lifelong career growth (or entrepreneurship if they decide to start their own) is not about which major they chose. There is no dispute that engineering and CS majors coming out of school have a huge advantage over LA/social studies majors in their first professional job. But even a lot of engineers can’t really maintain their career path in engineering over a lifetime. Technology advances too fast. The key is being able to learn new things and adapt to change. The smart and diligent ones can learn and adapt regardless of whether they majored in STEM or LA a long time ago. The stupid and lazy ones can’t (although those people most likely would not have survived any half-decent engineering school’s BS program anyway, let alone any respectable engineering school).

Most LA champions seem to assume that a programmer will continue to be one 10 years down. Same as me assuming a junior editor (or whatever an english degree gets you after college) will continue to be one in 10 years. People grow on the job, they become managers, architects, etc. The need to know technology hands on fades is not as critical. I was in data analytics when Microstrategy was still perfecting their product. That field has since moved on to big data, no sql, cloud databases and now AI based analytics. I don't have hands-on knowledge on most of them but can easily understand how they work and hire people in those domains as the need arises who do the hands-on. That's how workforce development works. I DON'T NEED TO LEARN NEW THINGS. JUST NEED TO KNOW HOW THESE THINGS WORK AT A HIGH LEVEL AND HOW I CAN LEVERAGE IT.

What happens if i get laid off? Well I crossed the threshold for FU money long ago thanks to the income premium (resulting in higher savings) my education got me right off the bat. I work because I want to, not have to. Most CS majors with half a brain coming out of college today will be in that position by the time they hit their 40s and definitely by their 50s.

Also, every grad school option available to a LA major is available to a CS/Engineering kid and they are more than qualified to excel there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am have a BA in art, DH has a BA in English, we both have law degrees and successful public policy careers.

Our kids will study what they are passionate about, likely not STEM (their decision not ours) and we are lucky they will come out of college without student debt. That would be my goal for them regardless of whether we were full pay or full FA and regardless of major. We fall in the middle, the proverbial donut hole that can afford a private school with decent merit aid or public.

I strongly believe that engaging deeply in subjects that interest you will lead to stronger critical thinking skills than forcing a particular major because of perceived marketability. My kid’s are good at math but their greatest strengths lie in the humanities. We also will support them in learning how you turn a humanities degree into a career. It’s not that we don’t believe they should get good jobs, we just don’t agree there is only one way.

I am a BA history with a law degree. I will never advise my kids to follow a career path that is not a skill that is marketable. Maybe at an Ivy League, never at a state school. Their college and grad school is paid for, but never for a soft degree without a skill attached. I was pushed to be a History major over a business degree, and it made everything more difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Must we have this discussion for the 40 thousandth time on this page? Let your kid major in that they want, are interested in, have a passion for and a talent for. End of story.

In college, I discovered that my true passion was to not work, and I had a talent for doing what I wanted to do, instead of doing anything that was required. Unfortunately this wouldn’t pay the bills, so I majored in something that I disliked but helped me live without financial worry. But my dream is still to quit and follow my dream of not working at all.

Who taught you to write and what was their major?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The collapse in humanities majors is not just because of the popularity of tech majors in the modern economy. Humanities are becoming a joke on many campuses. People talking about their humanities degrees from 30 years go keep forgetting it's not 1993 any more. There's been a revolution in how the humanities are taught and the academic experience is, let's put it as politely as possible, not as rigorous or insightful as it once was. Because of the courses taught by the current generation of college professors, fewer students are drawn to the humanities.

I do think higher education is going to go through a massive restructuring in the next few decades as people reevaluate their relationship with colleges and studying, especially in the age of AI in conjunction with the new ideological attitudes that have come to dominate higher education, and, of course costs.

Agree. I have no issue with humanities students who study hard and excel in their fields. But on average their study habits and work ethic are far worse than engineering students. Too many humanities students party too much and have too many distractions during 4 years of college. The bad news is that employers know it. Even those jobs that don’t require specialized technical knowledge, they know the difference between the work ethic of an engineering student v. a humanities student, unless the humanities student is from a top school with a top GPA.

I work with scientists, and by and large they are a bunch of entitled whiners. Their work ethic only extends to what strokes their ego.

DP..

Engineering majors get paid a lot more with an undergrad than most humanities majors, and there's a reason for that.

Engineering salaries are flat. Period. They usually do not go on to an advanced degree and don’t break $200k over time.

I’m a female STEM BS/MS that works with a ton of engineers. I make $180k/yr 28 years in my career.

I’m married to a Humanities major from a top 10 university. He went into software consulting started @$39k and was making $300k when he went independent 5 years later and makes around $550k. Just a BA.

I’m literally the only STEM worker in my entire wealthy neighborhood filled with lawyers and lobbyists and a few TV new/policy commentators.

My dear, you understand that lawyers need an advanced degree, right? While engineering majors don't to make that six figures.

Also, as a STEM major, you really ought to understand statistics vs anecdata.

Also, as a somewhat intelligent person, you should also understand that a humanities major at a T10 can use connections and networks to get the high paying jobs. The vast majority of humanities majors did not/do not go to a T10, and they don't make six figures 10 years out without a graduate degree, whereas engineering majors do, without a graduate degree. There goes that pesky statistics again.

Can you not read? I said most engineers do not go for a graduate degree and have stable - but not astronomical salaries. They stay at that $200k range.

Liberal arts/humanities from a great school—well-read, excellent writers, consolidate many facts do go onto to advanced degrees/professional degrees and these are the people with the 7-figure salaries in my neighborhood. The engineers and scientists like me are Feds and govt contractors making just around $200k still after 25 years.

And I have two kids that excel in BOTH in STEM and history/English/Modern languages. 5s on all AP exams and straight AS. Some of us can do both just as well—left AND right brained with high EQ.

But here is the problem: For every liberal arts graduate making seven-digit income, there are a hundred if not a thousand liberal arts graduates sitting in their mommy’s basement tweeting how unfair the society is.

Prove that with statistics / studies. You are so strongly attached to number crunching and technical knowledge you should be able to dredge that information up. Or is making a logical, persuasive argument using citations too much of a squishy humanities thing for you?

[Anonymous]

Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

[Anonymous]

If you major in CS, you need to take other courses too! CS is one of the rare areas where profs are often not at the top or cutting edge of the field. A lot of schools have embarrassingly bad curriculums too. An undergrad CS education is overrated right now. If you want to be a founder or work in big tech, there are plenty of routes. Resist that herd mentality!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

This is one of those occasions when manifestation won't work, or did you miss that in your comparative religions seminar?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

That’s expected. But in the future, if there are too many CS graduates and too few English and history graduates, the supply and demand relationship might change.

Why would it change? Why would English and history majors be in demand unless it's for teaching English or history?

So English and history majors can only teach? That’s a pretty dumb comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am have a BA in art, DH has a BA in English, we both have law degrees and successful public policy careers.

Our kids will study what they are passionate about, likely not STEM (their decision not ours) and we are lucky they will come out of college without student debt. That would be my goal for them regardless of whether we were full pay or full FA and regardless of major. We fall in the middle, the proverbial donut hole that can afford a private school with decent merit aid or public.

I strongly believe that engaging deeply in subjects that interest you will lead to stronger critical thinking skills than forcing a particular major because of perceived marketability. My kid’s are good at math but their greatest strengths lie in the humanities. We also will support them in learning how you turn a humanities degree into a career. It’s not that we don’t believe they should get good jobs, we just don’t agree there is only one way.

I am a BA history with a law degree. I will never advise my kids to follow a career path that is not a skill that is marketable. Maybe at an Ivy League, never at a state school. Their college and grad school is paid for, but never for a soft degree without a skill attached. I was pushed to be a History major over a business degree, and it made everything more difficult.

Exactly this. ROI is everything. I would never pay for a humanities or art major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

This is one of those occasions when manifestation won't work, or did you miss that in your comparative religions seminar?

😁😁. Saying that “a lot if STEM grads can’t read or write” is like saying that “a lot of liberal arts grads can’t add or subtract.” Except that there is more truth to the latter statement. At least one UMD law professor told me that some of the best law students in his class were STEM grads.

Just look at how many liberal arts grads in law school have so much trouble with the Rule against Perpetuities. They can’t even grasp the Learned Hand formula in torts. What a joke. And don’t get me started on how liberals arts grads are so good at “critical thinking.” No, most of them are not. Most of them party for 4 years. And don’t forget that most liberal arts graduates are NOT from HYP or SLAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am have a BA in art, DH has a BA in English, we both have law degrees and successful public policy careers.

Our kids will study what they are passionate about, likely not STEM (their decision not ours) and we are lucky they will come out of college without student debt. That would be my goal for them regardless of whether we were full pay or full FA and regardless of major. We fall in the middle, the proverbial donut hole that can afford a private school with decent merit aid or public.

I strongly believe that engaging deeply in subjects that interest you will lead to stronger critical thinking skills than forcing a particular major because of perceived marketability. My kid’s are good at math but their greatest strengths lie in the humanities. We also will support them in learning how you turn a humanities degree into a career. It’s not that we don’t believe they should get good jobs, we just don’t agree there is only one way.

I am a BA history with a law degree. I will never advise my kids to follow a career path that is not a skill that is marketable. Maybe at an Ivy League, never at a state school. Their college and grad school is paid for, but never for a soft degree without a skill attached. I was pushed to be a History major over a business degree, and it made everything more difficult.

Exactly this. ROI is everything. I would never pay for a humanities or art major.

Well everyone is different. Some of us value a life of the mind and don’t view the point of this world through transactional, ROI lens. We could afford to pay for our kids’ schools and let them decide what to study. If we couldn’t have afforded college for them, they would have done what I did which was get some loans, work, and receive lots of financial aid/grants. My parents paid nothing for my expensive private university. Majored in something you’d roll your eyes at and now have a job making 6 figures at a prominent institution working on things that matter to me. So glad I wasn’t forced to major in something that didn’t interest me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

This is one of those occasions when manifestation won't work, or did you miss that in your comparative religions seminar?

What is a “comparative religions,” in the plural, seminar? When you compare religions which are, respectively, more than one religion? Trying to get my head around that, logically, but I can’t. If only I had majored in CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I could find new grads who could code Verilog or Embedded C/POSIX, I would hire 5 today. I’d pay more if they had experience with ARM assembly and could do kernel debugging or Verilog verification.

As it is, I do not have any work for the numerous Java/PHP/Python/x86 assembly programmers whose resumes flood in. Most CS new grads do not have the knowledge or skills we need. We pay above average for people with the right skills… sigh.

Then you don’t want college grads. You want people who have a certification in a specific code, since in a year you’ll be listing different ones and the following year also different ones.

Stop trying to post about things you don’t understand. Hint — “a specific code” is not a meaningful combination of words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

This is one of those occasions when manifestation won't work, or did you miss that in your comparative religions seminar?

What is a “comparative religions,” in the plural, seminar? When you compare religions which are, respectively, more than one religion? Trying to get my head around that, logically, but I can’t. If only I had majored in CS.

You sound like my secretary.. nitpicking every sentence i write, when the meaning of what I meant to convey is really clear to everyone else. Need to fire that cow.. Nancy, is that you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Consequently, a lot of STEM grads can’t read or write.

This is one of those occasions when manifestation won't work, or did you miss that in your comparative religions seminar?

😁😁. Saying that “a lot if STEM grads can’t read or write” is like saying that “a lot of liberal arts grads can’t add or subtract.” Except that there is more truth to the latter statement. At least one UMD law professor told me that some of the best law students in his class were STEM grads.

Just look at how many liberal arts grads in law school have so much trouble with the Rule against Perpetuities. They can’t even grasp the Learned Hand formula in torts. What a joke. And don’t get me started on how liberals arts grads are so good at “critical thinking.” No, most of them are not. Most of them party for 4 years. And don’t forget that most liberal arts graduates are NOT from HYP or SLAC.

What? Where did you go to law school? *No one* at my law school had “so much trouble with the Rule against Perpetuities.” It’s just not that hard.

The “some of my best students were STEM grads” statement sounds pretty condescending. You may not have grasped that, being a STEM grad and all.